Capitalism is a system that turns personal greed into common good through specialisation and economies of scale. It's hugely inefficient but better than anarchy. So even though they may not be aware of it, capitalists are doing God's work (in an inefficient sort of way). — Devans99
. Given that what you say as true, of which I am not convinced, you miss the point. This is not about bricks and mortar. It is about people going from a system which guaranteed them a certain level of prosperity (Communism, Kemalist statism) to one where they are confronted by destitution on a daily basis. In the USA, 30 per cent cannot afford basic health care, the others go bust if they get ill, and the workforce is treated as slaves.No unions, no holılidays in the first year? Seriously? In Turkey, employers routinely employ people off the books and refuse to pay their social insurance. CEOs in Turkey have a legal right to carry firearms. Go figure."Success" is important to people, as are the major signs of success, like a congregation possessing a nice building. — Bitter Crank
one where they are confronted by destitution on a daily basis. In the USA, 30 per cent cannot afford basic health care, the others go bust if they get ill, and the workforce is treated as slaves.No unions, no holılidays in the first year? — Ricardoc
Industrial capitalism is the unique product of Western, Judeo-Christian culture, — Wayfarer
Or maybe earlier by Luther who taught that all work is holy. The work of the coal miner or tailor or street cleaner is as holy as someone who has taken vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience in a monastery, or pastors and preachers — Bitter Crank
Or maybe earlier by Luther who taught that all work is holy. — Bitter Crank
Explain what you mean by industrial capitalism as against mercantile capitalism and finance capitalism, then explain what you mean by judeo-Christian culture. — Ricardoc
Industrial capitalism - In the mid-18th century, a new group of economic theorists, led by David Hume[51] and Adam Smith, challenged fundamental mercantilist doctrines such as the belief that the world's wealth remained constant and that a state could only increase its wealth at the expense of another state.
During the Industrial Revolution, industrialists replaced merchants as a dominant factor in the capitalist system and affected the decline of the traditional handicraft skills of artisans, guilds and journeymen. Also during this period, the surplus generated by the rise of commercial agriculture encouraged increased mechanization of agriculture. Industrial capitalism marked the development of the factory system of manufacturing, characterized by a complex division of labor between and within work process and the routine of work tasks; and finally established the global domination of the capitalist mode of production.
You can look all of that up in the encyclopedia, to whit: — Wayfarer
The mob also runs on a system of personal greed, likewise the system is inefficient but certainly more efficient than anarchy, are the mobsters also doing God's work?
If they aren't doing God's work, what is the difference in the internal ethos of of personal greed that you would argue is different? — boethius
Both the mob and capitalists are greedy, but they are operating under different systems:
- Mobsters kill people and distribute dangerous drugs that harm society
- Capitalists do not kill people. They create goods and services that on balance, help society. — Devans99
They create goods and services that on balance, help society. — Devans99
OK, thanks, but what it is about Judeo Christian culture that leads to ındustrial capitalism? — Ricardoc
I think they are both greedy but the system/culture is different. — Devans99
Our governments maintains the system. — Devans99
How so? Anyone from any culture can join a gang and work their way up to become a mobster; in some cases, given their skill set, it's an economically rational decision. — boethius
If so, shouldn't the credit, the "God's work" be attributed to the government and whoever is involved in maintaining the government? — boethius
ost critical of my questions, concerning the actions that go towards this government/culture/system maintenance that are required for things to not be mob and corruption based, do these maintenance actions follow from a ethic of personal greed too? If so, can you describe how so? — boethius
I agree that capitalists do not deserve credit for doing God's work. Despite that, I still maintain that they are doing God's work even though they are often unaware of that. — Devans99
Yes, civil servants work for personal gain, but produce common good. They are part of the capitalist system too. — Devans99
You have changed the personal system from greed to gain, are these different motivations or the same? — boethius
For instance, if a civil servant is offered a bribe, and they are confident it is reasonable risk/reward, should they take the bribe? If not, what moral grounds should they have to refusing the bribe? — boethius
'Greed' is probably more appropriate to the private sector individuals earning disgustingly high amounts. We all work for personal 'gain' in this system. — Devans99
No they should not. Corrupt governments do get found out in the end. So do corrupt individuals. I think in the west, the civil service is relatively free from corruption. Politics is a different question though. — Devans99
We all work for gain, but not all of us can work for personal profit maximization or the system doesn't work? This is what I understand from your statement. — boethius
Again what ethic should they base this oversight roll on? Why can't the citizenry also seek to maximize gain, why is it only the capitalists and mobsters that can have this ethic depending on what system they find themselves in? — boethius
A followup question, given that we agree capitalists do not have a personal ethic that is compatible with public service, it is only accidental that they produce value in your description due to a government system and culture, shouldn't the citizens strive to keep capitalists away from influencing governing processes? — boethius
Isn't interesting that countries with the most rapacious capitalists ar the keenest to build places of worship - namely the USA, Turkey (which has more mosques per capita than any other country) and, I gather, Romania, where a fit of church building is goiing on.
Pussy Riot were subject to extensive jail terms in Putin's Russia, for misbehaving in Church, and Putin has been highly supportive of the various patriarchs of Russian orthodoxy, who inhabit those parts, while Porridgeheadcold in Ukraine pulled off something similar...
Are the capitalists doing God's work, or is it like the Old Testament, and Yahweh, or maybe Karl Marx, punishes us with alienation of labour value for whoring with other Gods? — Ricardoc
For God's sake. Everyone does God's work, if you believe in God and all the accouterments around the concept. — god must be atheist
To the extent that God has given humans free will, as many religions hold, not every person is doing God's work. — Hanover
Grrr... here we go again. Free will. The greatest cop-out invention of Christian dogma. — god must be atheist
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