Does every effect have a cause, or is it possible for causeless effects to happen? — Pattern-chaser
This is a simple question. It's the answer that's difficult.
Does every effect have a cause, or is it possible for causeless effects to happen? — Pattern-chaser
The full understanding of this is unknown at the time and that's just the point. If we cannot know it, we cannot deduce that something cannot come from nothing. Claiming that requires knowing more than all of science can know at this time in history. — Christoffer
We can however deduce that something permanent cannot naturally come from nothing if time was infinite (because matter density would become infinite). — Devans99
Every effect on large scales has a cause. — Christoffer
Unless a balancing amount of 'permanent' somethings go back to nothing at some point/time, as in the QM example? — Pattern-chaser
Assertions (without justification) are a problem here. We are wondering if effects can happen without causes, and you respond by saying they can't and don't, but you offer no justification. — Pattern-chaser
the universe therefore cannot come from 'nothing'. — Devans99
I'm referring to entropy, to causality for any large events — Christoffer
the universe therefore cannot come from 'nothing'. — Devans99
Did you read the entirety of what I wrote? — Christoffer
So the universe did come from nothing, contradicting what you just said: — Pattern-chaser
But I believe we can conclude there was a start of time and a first cause. So lack of specific knowledge of the detailed processes involved does not prevent high level deductions being made. — Devans99
So it's not clear i[f] we ever observe "causeless effects" or "caused effects," and it's not clear how we'd ever empirically establish the difference with any certainty. — Terrapin Station
Point being, if we can't firmly establish that time runs in only one direction, then cause and effect may be a meaningless concept. — Jake
We don't know precisely what if anything happened pre-BB. But I believe we can conclude there was a start of time and a first cause. — Devans99
I am making the special exception that for the special BB, it is possible that something came from nothing (zero energy universe hypothesis) — Devans99
We could go into detail on causality in itself... — Christoffer
...but I think the key answer to the question of causeless effects is that in our universe, no, not possible. — Christoffer
Yet another unjustified assertion. — Pattern-chaser
So when we consider the only example we've come up with, of what could have been a causeless event, you dismiss it as a special case? :gasp: — Pattern-chaser
if causality does not apply, it would surely be just a crazy, impossible universe? — Devans99
The justification is here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/5302/an-argument-for-eternalism/p1 — Devans99
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