Any distraction from the Brexit debacle will do?

I don't understand that either.


But didn't they get an extension? I have to admit that I haven't been paying attention.

Until Halloween.

That's not enough. According to Charles Dickens they have a building where all paperwork get shuffled around and lost. They need to get somebody from that bureau to deal with it.

It’s a lot more than an embarrassment. — Wayfarer

Amen. It's a form of war. And though it seems mostly harmless, something that happens to them, and nimby, viciousness breaks out on the body humanity like sores on a plague victim. Trump is both symptom and affliction. Who, in his whole long life, has he helped or loved? Silly question: he doesn't know the meanings of the terms. And how many, and in how many ways, has he harmed and damaged. Consider that, and that he thinks he's the greatest, and you get some clue as to how dangerously toxic he is, and how sick the people must be not to recognize him for what he is, never mind those who work for and with him.

Just hope the democrats can find a suitable candidate and to be honest, I'm not seeing it yet (from Australia, anyway). I think Sanders is, afraid to say, too old and a bit too left-leaning, and Joe Biden's day has gone. Warren will never be voted in, most of the other candidates seem like bit-players to me. There has to be someone.... :scream:

Watch Julian Castro. I like him. I think a Castro-Warren ticket would be formidable.Or Warren-Castro, but at the moment I think Warren, arguably the best candidate, won't win. Could change. Jimmy Carter, Barack Hussein Obama, who knew? But Warren isn't there yet. (Although I'll vote for her.)

I’m very impressed with Warren’s policy and platform but dubious about her electoral appeal.

I think Warren will do better in the polls as the debates occur

You’re watching the destruction of the office of the President of the United States, live and in real time. This is happening. — Wayfarer

Until you get your democrat in power? I think the Presidency will manage on Trump.

I suppose the silver lining with Trump is how well the other institutions of Government and the Justice department are standing up against his tyranny.

A succinct account of the total hypocrisy of the GOP under Trump.

The Democrats who now run the House...issued a subpoena on Friday “to the Department of Justice for the full version of the Mueller report and the underlying evidence.” Georgia Rep. Doug Collins, the top Republican on the House Judiciary Committee, predictably declared the subpoena “wildly overbroad.”

Collins must have conveniently forgotten the 2012 words of [Jim] Jordan, his Judiciary Committee colleague. While voting to hold [Obama's AG Eric] Holder in contempt of Congress, Jordan asked, “How can you ignore the facts when you don’t get the facts? That’s what this is all about. … I just want to get the information.”

For anyone wondering how Republicans would have handled this kind of conflict when Obama was president, you don’t have to wonder; just review recent history. House Republicans spent two years investigating the terrorist attack that killed four Americans in Benghazi in 2011 and then saw fit to form a select committee, in part, because “the administration still does not respect the authority of Congress to provide proper oversight.”

I have no doubt that if Republicans had a Mueller-like investigation to work with, they would have unleashed dozens of hearings and subpoenas to examine every potential thread of wrongdoing and unethical conduct with the goal of building to impeachment proceedings of the president.

On the fact that Trump is suing to prevent Congress gaining access to his financial records and testimony of his ex-staffers:

Former Oversight Committee Chairman Trey Gowdy [Republican] once said, "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles." Former Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith once argued that “when the administration repeatedly ignores constitutional and legal limits on the president’s power, it undermines the rule of law, with very real consequences.” Darrell Issa...another former chairman of the Oversight Committee, released a report stating explicitly that “Congress is constitutionally obligated to provide thorough oversight of the executive branch.”

Read more here.

I suppose the silver lining with Trump is how well the other institutions of Government and the Justice department are standing up against his tyranny. — Wayfarer

Oh don't be so modest.

Even his absolutely terrible own administration and the hateful backstabbing people in it simply didn't implement his whackiest orders. The true Russophiles were whisked away within days of the start of the administration leaving only Trump to show his adamant devotion to Putin (in places like Helsinki). Russia did actually prone what kind of capitulations they could milk from Trump and didn't get much. Trump didn't withdraw American troops from NATO countries as 'an a friendly gesture'. Trump didn't openly acknowledge Crimea being part of Russia. And Trump's idea of a Russo-American organization to fight cyber attacks was simply passed as a gaffe.

But of course in the next elections this is unimportant. What is important is only the absolute hate that pro-Trump and anti-Trump people have for each other. Oh how these groups loathe the repugnant other side. And that's Trump's shtick: hope that the outrage and hatred of the Democrats erupts in a similar moment as with Hillary when she called Trump supporters "The Deplorables". The was the highpoint of the Trump train in 2016.

This deserves its own thread and a wider conversation, but once again Jews have been targeted by a White Supremacist who believes that they are actively bringing immigrants into the United States in order to replace white people. Not only has Trump made immigration a central political focus, but in the lead-up to the midterm he focused on the "migrant caravan" to drum up fear and white anxiety. This is intertwined with claims that George Soros is a financing this conspiracy, which Trump has entertained as a possibility.

Soros is a financing this conspiracy — Maw

Did you mean caravan?

That's what I'm referring to

Did you mean caravan? — Benkei

Oh? :gasp:
My Heavens, to what are you referring to? :monkey:

Maw is referring to the manufactured non-existent crisis that only Trump supporters and the anti-semite alt-right believe in. And that they have found their favorite rich Jew manipulator of all time...again. (Like th other side has the Koch Brothers...but that's obviously different)

A month ago:

]I ask once again, is anyone here willing to believe me that we have an issue at my States Southern border? — "ArguingWAristotleTiff

Beware of the alt-dark side, Tiff.

Beware of the alt-dark side, Tiff. — ssu

ssu Thank you for the warning, I shall put it up against what is actually happening here in my backyard. I am not here to convince anyone anymore because I am summerialy dismissed, too often by people who I respect. There may come a time thinkers can believe without witnessing a situation themselves.
I am barely aware of the reality that my ebrother, Mayor, experienced in handling a surge of people wanting to move through Austria not too long ago. But what I can say and have ABSOLUTELY no control over is Mother Nature and the wicked heat that is on.
People who have walked through two countries to get to the USA are not strong enough to survive the elements. Hell most of us cannot handle the heat. At what point is what I am saying believable? When CNN says we have a problem at our border?
Or is it with broken heart that I ask if it is going to take proof of bodies from Katrina before the "right" people believe that the levy failed?
All I can say is when the reality and the gravity of what is actually happening in my back yard is acknowledged here, I hope it is not too late to recover.

There are problems that are manifested at the border, but a border wall does not solve it because asylum seekers can enter through legal points of entry. Trump's rhetoric has done more harm than good: it has induced people to come now, because they think the opportunity will disappear. We absolutely need comprehensive immigration reform, which should include things like guest workers and better control of the asylum process. If Trump were interested in solving problems, instead of "winning"- we could make progress.

Comprehensive immigration reform is absolutely necessary. However, if a person shows up at an Emergency room with a bleeding gash in their chest and a toothache, we have no legitimate choice. We have to treat the bleed in order for the person to survive and the toothache is addressed later.
That patient with the bleeding wound is at our doorstep waiting to be seen and we don't have the resources and they don't have a plan.
Everything cannot be Priority 1 and at this point I believe the human life is more important than finger pointing.
Many have suggestions, some nothing but criticism but I need solutions.
Agreed we need immigration reform for the long term toothache but tell me what you Triage strategy is because if we do nothing the results in my opinion will be tragic.
This is one situational I am not okay with "time will tell, it always does".

There's lessons to be learned from the Trump administration's failed tactics. They haven't been the sort of obvious, short term remedies that are done for treating gaping wounds - and they show that the wrong treatment can actually make the problem worse. There's not even agreement on what the problems ARE. For example, Trump would like to shut off all asylum seekers. An absence of a wall has not caused the current crisis.

In a more perfect world, one with more statesmanship and less politics, a bipartisan group would be convened to identify the problems and their causes, and then develop fact-based policy recommendations that could be implemented while being monitored for efficacy. I'm skeptical that can happen here.

There's lessons to be learned from the Trump administration's failed tactics. They haven't been the sort of obvious, short term remedies that are done for treating gaping wounds - and they show that the wrong treatment can actually make the problem worse. There's not even agreement on what the problems ARE. For example, Trump would like to shut off all asylum seekers. An absence of a wall has not caused the current crisis. — Relativist

The lessons that you speak of that can be learned from the Trump administration's failed tactics are?
Please be specific and as I try to remain as objective as I possibly can. Please speak on a community level rather than a national level because right now? The community, the meso level of society is who is being impacted by this influx. Nothing from the national level will solve the people who are now being essentially abandoned at Phoenix Greyhound bus station, Phoenix Sky Harbor airport, wherever there is a hope of transportation. If our ngo can come up with it, they take in the refugees off the street, treat their many times severe medical conditions and then purchase tickets for them to move further into the country to a 'family' member or a sponsor. If the ngo is unable to help or if the refugee decides on their own accord to depart until their court date which is currently 3 year out, where do they go? Our communities cannot nor should they be put in the position to have their lives overrun simply because our elected officials, ALL OF THEM, can get their heads out of the sand and recognize that we cannot handle it.

In a more perfect world, one with more statesmanship and less politics, a bipartisan group would be convened to identify the problems and their causes, and then develop fact-based policy recommendations that could be implemented while being monitored for efficacy. I'm skeptical that can happen here. — Relativist

To which I say, we are not privileged to live in the "perfect world" that you speak of and circle back to the fact that we are in an "all hands on deck" position and we cannot maintain it forever. Something is going to have to give and I really find it hard to comprehend that I am the only one that can foresee the exacerbation that it is putting on my community.

Maw is referring to the manufactured non-existent crisis that only Trump supporters and the anti-semite alt-right believe in. And that they have found their favorite rich Jew manipulator of all time...again. (Like th other side has the Koch Brothers...but that's obviously different) — ssu

Trump has claimed he "wouldn't be surprised" if George Soros was funding the "invading" immigrant caravan which was the manufactured story leading up to the mid-term election, and has been leveraged by right wing pundits such as Fox News, to argue that these immigrants will be replacing white Americans. As a result, we have white nationalists shooting up synagogues in Pittsburgh and, most recently, San Diego. The idea of a white demographic replacement was also the inspiration behind the Christchurch mosque shootings, which left 50 Muslims dead.

The idea that non-whites are "replacing" whites is a key component of white nationalism ideology.

The lessons that you speak of that can be learned from the Trump administration's failed tactics are? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Consider the zero tolerance policy that led to separating parents from children. Trump thought this would be a deterrent and ignored the morality (and associated public backlash) and the stress this would place on the immigration courts. Lessons learned: morality should be considered and given priority; consider the consequences of planned actions and plan for dealing with those consequences.

Consider Trump's rhetoric and the possibility that this contributed to a rush to the anticipated soon-to-be-closed border. Lesson learned: words can have consequences, and may even exacerbate the problem you're complaining about.

Trump preached that the wall would solve all important problems, ignoring credible criticism. Lesson: take criticism seriously, rather than dismissing it. Identify all the problems, by soliciting input and analysis from across both parties and a variety of backgrounds and expertise. Identify potential solutions and anticipate benefits, costs, and negative consequences to each. Anticipate that course corrections will be needed. The focus should be on problem solving, rather than "winning".

Trump has threatened to cut off aid to the Central American Countries to punish them for failing to prevent their residents from coming to the US. Experts have noted that this is likely to result in MORE migrations, not fewer. Even if one is skeptical of this, one should consider the possibility the critics are right. Perhaps MORE aid would help. Perhaps more control of the way the aid is spent should be sought - I don't know, but it can certainly be considered and studied.

Trump has frequently complained about our immigration laws. Lesson learned: at best this is ineffective; at worst it is divisive. Why hasn't he asked for a bi-partisan commission to revise the laws (accepting reasonable compromise) to make them more workable?

And speaking of compromise: Trump and the Republicans have failed to reach out to Democrats on any major policies (not just immigration). They treat "compromise" as a bad word, an anathema to be avoided at all costs. Lesson learned: bipartisanship is a good thing. Compromise should not be considered a loss, or caving in - rather it is a way to progress.

Which immediately underlines their wonderful, irrational cognitive dissonance "my culture/race is superior but I'm still afraid to be subjugated by foreigners".

Looking at it that way, I'm the ultimate white supremacist because I'm not afraid of losing my identity or being oppressed by foreigners or minorities.

But in all seriousness I think it is symptomatic of a lot of underlying fear. Being one hospital visit away from poverty, realising the American dream is dead for most, being hard working and seeing it doesn't pay off, the lack of dignity of low-skilled work, the idea you'll have to compete for jobs with these immigrants (which in some cases is real), etc. etc.

Trump has claimed — Maw

Also, I kind of shrug my shoulders whenever Trump claims anything but the fact there was a program and that other US senators and media take it seriously, that's more of a "wtf"-moment to me.

Consider the zero tolerance policy that led to separating parents from children. Trump thought this would be a deterrent and ignored the morality (and associated public backlash) and the stress this would place on the immigration courts. Lessons learned: morality should be considered and given priority; consider the consequences of planned actions and plan for dealing with those consequences. — Relativist

I watched it happen, supported the law being enforced and since listened and heard from many here on the forum and agree that it's consequences were inhumane.

Consider Trump's rhetoric and the possibility that this contributed to a rush to the anticipated soon-to-be-closed border. Lesson learned: words can have consequences, and may even exacerbate the problem you're complaining about. — Relativist

With all due respect, I am not "complaining" about anything. I am asking for there to be a shred of belief in what I am saying, what I am witnessing in my community IS happening and not being summarily dismissed because I am someone who voted for President Trump.
Having said that: yes words have consequences and as you suggested in the separation of children from their parents; actions have consequences but a lack of action has consequences as well. The lack of action is what I am attempting to address and true to form, the first step to addressing a problem is admitting that we have one, which you can see is tenuous at best.

Trump preached that the wall would solve all important problems, ignoring credible criticism. — Relativist

No Sir. President Trump did not preach that the wall would solve all important problems. His suggestion of repairing the existing wall and extending it is not something that is novel to President Trump. The difference between his administration and past administrations is that this administration means what they say and say what they mean, for better or for worse. President Trump ran on enforcing the immigration laws and updating them and that is not something I am against. I am not in lock step with his approach, his suggestions, his administrations actions but I can say that he is trying to do something.

Lesson: take criticism seriously, rather than dismissing it. Identify all the problems, by soliciting input and analysis from across both parties and a variety of backgrounds and expertise. Identify potential solutions and anticipate benefits, costs, and negative consequences to each. Anticipate that course corrections will be needed. — Relativist

Living in a border state I am well aware of how much the CBP have been consulted and to suggest that they are not experts is erroneous. Additionally I have friends who live in the immediate communities that refuges are being released into in addition to those being bused up to Phoenix.

The focus should be on problem solving, rather than "winning". — Relativist

Whatever. If we are going to fall back on hyperbole then we are probably not making much progress here.

Trump has threatened to cut off aid to the Central American Countries to punish them for failing to prevent their residents from coming to the US. Experts have noted that this is likely to result in MORE migrations, not fewer. Even if one is skeptical of this, one should consider the possibility the critics are right. Perhaps MORE aid would help. Perhaps more control of the way the aid is spent should be sought - I don't know, but it can certainly be considered and studied. — Relativist

Yes, I agree that more control over the way the aid is spent should be sought is an absolute. It is one of the reasons the President is cutting off financial support, because the money is not making it to the people as a result of the government corruption. The aid is not being cut off to punish any refugees.

Trump has frequently complained about our immigration laws. Lesson learned: at best this is ineffective; at worst it is divisive. Why hasn't he asked for a bi-partisan commission to revise the laws (accepting reasonable compromise) to make them more workable? — Relativist

Maybe he has? I know that right now there are enough people in denial that this humanitarian crisis even exists that I understand the frustration he is feeling.

And speaking of compromise: Trump and the Republicans have failed to reach out to Democrats on any major policies (not just immigration). They treat "compromise" as a bad word, an anathema to be avoided at all costs. Lesson learned: bipartisanship is a good thing. Compromise should not be considered a loss, or caving in - rather it is a way to progress. — Relativist

Compromise is a good thing when done in good faith. Honesty is just as necessary as compromise and we don't have a united front on honesty yet and until we do, anything we try is doomed to fail.

The difference between his administration and past administrations is that this administration means what they say and say what they mean, for better or for worse. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I read a headline yesterday that Trump has reached ten thousand lies since being elected. And let’s not forget “alternative facts” and “the truth is not the truth.” Also, is it a wall or a fence? Mexico isn’t paying either way. And does Trumps wall need to be finished or begun?

Well, he's going to get away with what was reported by Mueller. Again, he will succeed in lowering the standard of the office such that things that any other person would be impeached or jailed for, he will walk away from. Others will go to jail in his place, like Paul Manafort and Michael Cohen, and the GOP will just keep quiet. As someone said the other day, the only thing that would make the Republicans turn against him would be putting taxes on the wealthy up.

Now, imagine if, when those Russians reached out to Donnie, if they'd reported it straightaway to the FBI. Imagine if when they got wind that Wikileaks had access to all the DNC hacks, they reported that as well, instead of playing along. Then there would have been nothing to hide! No need for any enquiry or Special Prosecutor! But that is NOT what happened. There was, if not "collusion" - a meaningless term - at least some conniving with Russians, and plenty of lying about it. That is as clear as day, black and white, beyond dispute. But - he's gotten away with it.

Again.

At what point is what I am saying believable? When CNN says we have a problem at our border? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

No.

Understand how this goes, Tiff.

First and foremost, if ANYTHING you say can be interpreted as giving credibility to Trump, people are going to dismiss you... because you are basically supporting then what they hate, Trump. You see Americans simply cannot escape the bipolar political discourse in the country. I would argue that this may be becoming reality in other countries too, but still for example here it's not present as the political parties have to create coalition governments, which tones down the rhetoric immensely. Yet the American media has every intention to uphold this bipolarization. Since the presidential elections are coming, this mass psychosis will get hold of many Americans and rightly the time is called the silly season. The two-party state depends on Americans believing that the other party is inherently bad and the only thing to do is to vote for the other one.

Just look at how Relativist answered to you:

There are problems that are manifested at the border, but a border wall does not solve it because asylum seekers can enter through legal points of entry. Trump's rhetoric has done more harm than good — Relativist

So basically Relativist agree's that there are problems at the border, but then comes the Freudian slip: Trump's border wall doesn't work, Trump's rhetoric is bad. Now I didn't notice you saying that Trump's idea of a wall is great and that you support Trump's rhetoric. In fact you were not talking about Trump at all. In my view you haven't been a staunch defender of Trump or the Republicans any way. And so this shows how people approach these issues: nothing is an objective discussion about the situation, everything is a political statement that supports your political side.