Here’s an interesting thing about suffering in terms of pain, loss and humility: there can be no process of life without experiencing all three. There is no interconnectedness without loss, no growth or development without noticing and adjusting to change, and no awareness of anything in the universe without humbly recognising that the universe is bigger and more valuable than my existence. — Possibility
So the only way to eliminate experiences of pain, loss and humility is to cease living — Possibility
I question this need to ‘control’ everything. Despite every effort and every elaborate illusion we construct, I can potentially control my thoughts, my words and my actions, and you can potentially control yours. That’s it, at best. — Possibility
That doesn’t mean we do, however, but it’s a start to recognise where our individual capacity for control starts and finishes. — Possibility
I may assume, for instance, that I ‘control’ the axe I am using to chop wood, but that sense of control is dependent upon my body’s awareness of certain interconnective properties of the molecules that form the axe and its handle and their collective capacity to split wood, the combination of situational properties (position of the wood, angle of impact, force, arc of swing, grip, etc) that will achieve the desired effect on the wood, as well as my body’s capacity to lift and swing the axe in the required manner every time. Even if I don’t have to consciously think about all of this detail to make it happen, my body still has to take all of this into account to appear to ‘control’ the axe. If I have misjudged or incorrectly assumed any one of these relationships (beyond a certain margin for error), I may ‘lose this control of the axe, as what I intend or desire to happen with the axe fails to occur as intended or desired. But there was never any ‘control’ as such - there are a number of interconnected relationships at work as a result of awareness. — Possibility
I think perhaps this idea of ‘control’ is where we have a misguided view of our relationship with the world. When we don’t feel like we have control, when what we intend or desire fails to occur as desired or intended, we experience suffering. When what we believe should happen doesn’t, when we incorrectly assume the properties of a relationship with our environment, we experience suffering. — Possibility
I think I am on board when it comes to eliminating pain. But to compromise with Leo's position a little, I am comfortable with suggesting significant reductions in suffering is possible. I think your next paragraph indicates you might be ok with that too? (although determining EXACTLY how much we can reduce suffering is probably very debatable) — ZhouBoTong
Here’s an interesting thing about suffering in terms of pain, loss and humility: there can be no process of life without experiencing all three. There is no interconnectedness without loss, no growth or development without noticing and adjusting to change, and no awareness of anything in the universe without humbly recognising that the universe is bigger and more valuable than my existence. — Possibility
So the only way to eliminate experiences of pain, loss and humility is to cease living - I think it’s important to recognise this if our aim is to find a way to model and then control, reduce or eliminate suffering while continuing to live. — Possibility
I question this need to ‘control’ everything. Despite every effort and every elaborate illusion we construct, I can potentially control my thoughts, my words and my actions, and you can potentially control yours. That’s it, at best. — Possibility
I think perhaps this idea of ‘control’ is where we have a misguided view of our relationship with the world. When we don’t feel like we have control, when what we intend or desire fails to occur as desired or intended, we experience suffering. When what we believe should happen doesn’t, when we incorrectly assume the properties of a relationship with our environment, we experience suffering. — Possibility
I agree with this, but laws of physics can't be applied to acts of living beings because living things are self-moving. So it's not semantics that I'm arguing. What type of universal model would be adequate for understanding intentional acts? It's fundamental to a living being that it's motives are unique to itself. — Metaphysician Undercover
If you believe that the tools which the doctors already use are inadequate for dealing with suffering, then what more do you want, other than to throw away these models and deal with the peculiarities of particular instances? — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes, that's obvious, but most actual cases of suffering are caused accidentally. No matter how well I know that the fire will burn me, this won't prevent me from getting burned when I slip and fall into the fire while stoking it. This is what I meant when I said that suffering is caused by accidents, things we are unaware of, unknowns. I can know that walking down the street is dangerous, a car might hit me, but this doesn't prevent me from doing it, because there are things which I value that require taking this minimal risk. But if a car is hitting me it's already too late to prevent the suffering which will follow. — Metaphysician Undercover
If you're familiar with Aristotle's ethics you'll know that he talks about a balance, "the mean". Virtue is found in the middle (the mean) between the two extremes, both of which are vises. So courage for example is the mean between being rash and being timid. If we refrain from behaving in ways which could lead to suffering we will fall into that extremity of being timid, and this could increase the possibility of a different sort of suffering.
The key points here are "possibility", and "the unknown". If we avoid any situation where there is the possibility of suffering arising, then we wouldn't do anything. But suffering comes about when you least expect it because there will always be possible causes of suffering which are unknown to you, and therefore not avoided by you. So if you do nothing, because doing anything causes the possibility of suffering, you might find that doing nothing could actually cause suffering itself. This is why we need a healthy balance, the mean between trying to avoid the possibility of suffering arising, which drives us away from doing things, and living an active life. — Metaphysician Undercover
If this is your approach, then I think the first step would be to categorize different types of suffering. I think that you will find that there are a number of different types which are not at all similar. Being not at all similar, they have completely different underlying causes, and need to be classed separately. So for instance the person who accidental put a hand into the lawn mower has one type of suffering, and the young man who is having trouble finding a woman for a date has a completely different type of suffering. I believe that these two are so completely different with respect to causation, that it's difficult to understand why we even call them by the same name, "suffering". The problem I see, is that we will go on and on, determining many different types of suffering, each being a different type according to its mode of causation, until we hit numerous forms of suffering which we cannot say what the cause is. — Metaphysician Undercover
I believe that if we can focus on things which we enjoy, and things which we are doing because we want to do them, we can put any suffering which we have, in the background. And, I believe that in most cases suffering is similar to pain, which is caused by an injury, and injuries heal with time. So if we can focus away from the suffering, and occupy ourselves with the things that we enjoy doing, we can give the injury and the suffering time to heal. — Metaphysician Undercover
Indeed this is one way to relieve suffering. But then let's say you find yourself in a state where you don't enjoy anymore the things you used to enjoy, or that you focus on other desires to relieve your suffering but that they too lead you to suffer. Then the method to focus on what we want doesn't always work. It works sometimes, but there are cases where it doesn't work, and in those cases we need other solutions. — leo
Let us say you have had a very happy day- you do all the activities you wanted, you are with all the people you wanted (or by yourself if that's what you prefer), it's that weird transition into the next day.. that feeling that all those good experiences don't even matter right NOW, that is the root of the problem. — schopenhauer1
There is some kind of phenomenon I call "instrumentality" in the human experience of good/pleasure. It's that feeling of dissatisfaction that underlies even the goods of life. That there is something unsustainable with even feeling good. — schopenhauer1
But there can be pain, loss, humility and change without suffering, so surely they cannot be the root causes of suffering. — leo
I feel that the most inclusive view of suffering (given the examples in this thread) is that we experience suffering when we desire something and we believe we can't have it. Can you find any counterexample to this? — leo
Would you agree with the idea that the person who experiences physical pain suffers because he doesn't want to experience the sensation of physical pain, and that the young man who is having trouble finding a woman suffers because he wants to find a woman and he can't do it?
In both cases, there is a conflict between what is desired and what is experienced. I suggest that this is what suffering is. — leo
I’m not saying that pain, loss and humiliation are the ‘root causes’ of suffering, but in a model of suffering, is there an example of suffering without an experience of pain, loss or humiliation? — Possibility
But I think there’s more to the experience of suffering than desiring something and believing we can’t have it. — Possibility
Firstly, it’s not only masochists who experience physical pain without suffering. People who exercise, lift weights or compete in individual sports such as marathons or rock climbing, often willingly endure physical pain, not because they want to experience the sensation of physical pain, but because they want the results of stronger muscles or a sense of achievement. — Possibility
So the person who experiences physical pain suffers not because he doesn’t want to experience the sensation of physical pain, but because he believes he deserves a life without pain — Possibility
and the young man who wants to find a woman is not suffering because he can’t find a woman, but because he believes that every young man is supposed to find a woman. — Possibility
Let us say you have had a very happy day- you do all the activities you wanted, you are with all the people you wanted (or by yourself if that's what you prefer), it's that weird transition into the next day.. that feeling that all those good experiences don't even matter right NOW, that is the root of the problem. — schopenhauer1
It's that feeling of dissatisfaction that underlies even the goods of life. That there is something unsustainable with even feeling good. This then leads to the idea of, "why even try to pursue good then if it is just this repeating cycle?". It is hard to pinpoint it, maybe some sort of angst, or realization that all is for nothing really. It is that dip in mood after a good time, that low, that seeing through things for what they are, which is simply the inability to be. We manufacture experiences of happiness to evade the instrumental, repetitive, nothing-feeling one gets if one is not engaged, or right after a peak of engagement. That weird melancholy feeling that it doesn't matter what we do. — schopenhauer1
Laws of physics are models of things that many of us experience. There are things that many of us experience (desires, beliefs, suffering) that laws of physics do not take into account, but that doesn't mean we can't build models of how desires, beliefs, suffering and other experiences interact with one another. I don't see a fundamental difference between the two.
We take a ball to be an objective thing because we synthesize various reports of that ball from various living beings from various points of view. If you and I experience a ball moving, we're not experiencing the same thing, we're not seeing the ball from the same point of view, you're not seeing what I see and I'm not seeing what you see. Same goes for your desires and beliefs, I'm not experiencing them, but you can tell me what you experience, and we can synthesize various reports and build a general model that applies to various individuals. — leo
Yes we can't control everything. But there are things that can be done to reduce your suffering. If you experience pain and you suffer because of it, there are things we can do to make you experience less pain.
Again my aim is not to eliminate all possible suffering forever, but to come up with methods that can more effectively deal with suffering. Current methods deal quite well with physical pain and the resulting suffering, but there is a lot of other suffering that current methods deal poorly with. And effective methods are derived from accurate models. — leo
Yes I agree that attempting to avoid all possible suffering can lead to suffering in itself. But again, it doesn't hurt to not put your hand in a fire. It doesn't hurt to not walk into incoming traffic. It doesn't hurt to not undertake endeavors that will most likely lead to suffering.
People live their lives according to what they desire and believe, but their desires and beliefs are partly shaped by their understanding of the world, of existence. I see a good model of suffering as one tool that people can use to live the life they want. They don't have to use it, but when they need it it's nice to have. And better have a tool that works well than one that doesn't. — leo
Would you agree with the idea that the person who experiences physical pain suffers because he doesn't want to experience the sensation of physical pain, and that the young man who is having trouble finding a woman suffers because he wants to find a woman and he can't do it?
In both cases, there is a conflict between what is desired and what is experienced. I suggest that this is what suffering is. — leo
You can make an accurate predictive model of the inanimate movement, but you cannot do that with a living being, because you will never know all the variables, and never know how the variables might influence the being's movement. Sure you can make some extremely simple models like Pavlov, but that's very basic. You can make a model to predict how the ball will move when thrown, but you cannot make an accurate model to predict how the dog will move when you let the dog out the door. — Metaphysician Undercover
Let's say you want some specific thing you have never had, but you can't seem to get it and you suffer as a result. There is no physical pain nor loss involved. There is not necessarily humiliation involved. But there is suffering. — leo
I can believe I deserve something and not suffer if I don't have it. I can believe I deserve something, but if I don't care whether I have it or not then I don't suffer if I don't have it. I will care if I want that thing and I don't have it though, desire has to be involved. — leo
When I feel pain, and suffer, the pain and the suffering are one and the same. I know that you've already said that people can have pain without suffering, and I accept this, but that just means that not all pain is suffering. So pain is the wider category in this way of using the terms, not all pain qualifies as suffering, but all suffering might qualify as pain. Therefore you do not have the principles to say that the suffering is something different from the pain, as something caused by the pain, or the result of the pain. — Metaphysician Undercover
Let's continue to consider why some pain would qualify as suffering and some would not. We carry out many activities knowing that there is a high probability of some pain, but we do them anyway, assuming that the pain will not be suffering. So there is a saying "no pain no gain", in cases like athletics, where training and conditioning requires some pain. We submit to pain for the long term goal, and that pain is not suffering. Why is it not suffering? Because of the attitude, that pain is necessary for some good. But such individuals may live on the borderline of suffering. What if it starts to appear like they are not making progress toward their goals, or that they are incapable of obtaining such goals? Then the pain might begin to appear as suffering.
Do you agree that what distinguishes "suffering" from "pain" is one's attitude, one's mental approach to the pain? When the pain is approached with a defeatist's attitude, it is apprehended as suffering, something which cannot be overcome. But when it is approached with the attitude that it must be overcome, and I must continue to get on with my activities, then it is not suffering, it is just pain. — Metaphysician Undercover
So there is always a conflict between what is desired, and what is experienced, because achieving our goals takes work, effort, and there is pain (which is not desired) that is involved with this. The pain is unwanted, so it really conflicts with what is desired, but it is not suffering. We accept the pain despite the fact that it is not desired, for the sake of achieving our goals. It is when the pain is apprehended as unacceptable that it is called suffering. This might occur if the goal begins to appear unobtainable, the pain would become unacceptable. — Metaphysician Undercover
But in building a model of suffering we are not attempting to predict how people are going to move! — leo
There can be pain without suffering, and there can be suffering without pain, so the two are not the same thing, nor is suffering a subset of pain, nor is pain a subset of suffering.
You say that all suffering might qualify as pain but I don't agree. By pain we usually refer to the sensation of physical pain. When you suffer from the death of a loved one, that suffering is very different from the sensation of physical pain. It might however be somewhat similar to the suffering you may experience while you endure a strong physical pain, as in it is an experience you want to stop but you don't know how to stop. — leo
Now I agree that we can't say with absolute certainty that when we feel physical pain and suffering at the same time, that the suffering is a consequence of the pain. At that point it depends on the model of suffering we build. — leo
What is it that is different between the individual who apprehends pain as something which cannot be overcome, and the individual who apprehends pain as something which can be overcome? Belief. What you refer to as one's attitude or mental approach is in this example one's belief. Depending on what is believed, a given perception may give rise to suffering or not. — leo
What is it that is different between the individual who apprehends pain as something serving no purpose, and the individual who apprehends pain as something leading to something better? Desire. If there is a desire to endure the pain in order to get a stronger body, that pain is not suffering. If there is no such desire then the focus is on the desire to not experience the pain, and that pain is then suffering. — leo
I don't agree that there is always a conflict between what is desired and what is experienced.
If you desire something but you don't have it, and you focus on the fact you don't have it, you focus on the conflict and you suffer.
However, if you desire something and you believe you can get it, you don't focus on the fact you don't have it. The belief changes the experience, the experience is not the same because the focus is not the same. You focus on the goal you desire, you visualize it, and this desire is stronger than the desire to avoid the perceived pain. There is a difference between what is desired and what is experienced, but it is not a conflict. A difference is not always a conflict.
But I agree it should be possible to come up with a better formulation than "suffering is a conflict between what is desired and what is experienced/believed", that is more precise and less prone to misinterpretations. — leo
This is an experience of lack, which I did mention in my original post in tandem with loss. Lack is a more accurate and inclusive description of the experience, but loss seems to make more sense to people when we talk about suffering. This is also the case with humility, which is an inclusive description of the experience for which humiliation is more often considered suffering. — Possibility
But the experience of lack of suffering is also an experience of lack, yet it is not suffering. And the experience of the lack of something unwanted is usually not suffering.
Meanwhile the experience of presence of suffering is suffering, and the experience of the presence of something unwanted can be suffering.
We could say that experiences of lack can lead to suffering, and experiences of presence can lead to suffering, but any experience can be formulated as lacking something or as having something, so we can't say that a lack or presence indicate in themselves suffering over anything else.
Basically, lack or presence in themselves are not variables that act on suffering. It is the lack or the presence of something that can act on suffering, and what we are looking for are the something. — leo
I think it’s important to understand that pain, loss/lack and humility/humiliation are the experiences where suffering occurs
where there is suffering, at least one of these experiences is also occurring. — Possibility
But do you agree that there cannot be an experience of lack or loss without a desire for what is perceived to be lacked or lost? This makes desire a more fundamental factor in suffering. — leo
I (choose to) believe that something good can come from this discussion. — Couchyam
We should be grateful that people who chose to specialize in a mental health related profession have honed their interests over many years. An 'enthusiastic amateur' might develop moments of strong empathy for people who suffer from mental illness, but usually those moments are unpredictable and unreliable. Often, enthusiastic amateurs do more harm than good (this should be self-evident) unless there is sufficiently good reason to believe they can sustain their empathy long enough to help. The reason enthusiastic amateurs often fail is that many people instinctively seek reciprocation or compensation for help that they give, whether or not it was requested. — Couchyam
But if we acknowledge that suffering results from an interaction between what we desire and what we experience, then we have a framework that can guide us to find the source of a person's suffering and help relieve it: What does the person really want, that is in conflict with what they experience, and how can we best untie their knot to make their experience of life closer to the life they want? — leo
On the example of a young man, who wants a woman to love and to love him back and to start a family with, and who suffers because he can't find one, then helping him find one is the more obvious remedy, rather than making him think that he is such a shitty human being he doesn't deserve one, or that he doesn't really need love or a family. — leo
Now in the process of helping him find a woman, the reasons why he couldn't find one would be explored and addressed, and if the root issues are addressed then a priori there is no reason that he would form relationships that keep falling apart, and if that turns out to be the case then that means the therapy was poor and something important was missed, the root issues weren't addressed, for instance maybe the young man was coached to fake a persona to make women attracted to him, but once in a relationship he couldn't keep it up. — leo
I have no opinion on whether a given person deserves something or not, here I am just focused on helping the person suffer less. If the path to happiness for that person is to find a woman to love him and start a family with, who am I to judge whether I think he deserves that or not? — leo
As to "gaining control", if we help someone to get what they want then obviously we have helped them to gain control over their life. If we help them to change their expectations or their reaction to a situation then we're still helping them to gain control over their life. It is precisely control over ourselves and our surroundings that keeps us alive. Both gaining control over a situation and over ourselves (our desires, expectations, reactions, beliefs) can help relieve suffering. — leo
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