My question is whether this social convention of never uttering the N-word is a reasonable act of respect or whether it's simply a politically imposed rule that can be used to divide and destroy? — Hanover

I think it shows that Americans have a similar issues like Germans have with their past.

Not as traumatic as there of course, yet slavery, segregation and the hangings of blacks simply is an issue that white America has a problem with. And just to take it casually could be interpreted the wrong way as Americans take themselves very seriously. And just like with Hitler and nazism in Germany, the issue is used in current politics and casts it's long shadow to the present. In Germany showing the nazi flag can get you up to three years jail time, so they take it seriously.

My question is whether this social convention of never uttering the N-word is a reasonable act of respect or whether it's simply a politically imposed rule that can be used to divide and destroy? — Hanover

By "politically imposed" I infer that you're referring to "political correctness." i.e. in our current society, it is deemed politically incorrect to say the actual "n-word". This is surely the case, but it's not "simple", it's evolved into political incorrectness for good reasons, partly historical - but also because today it DOES divide.

it's just part of my programming at this point in my life. The fury of my parents should they hear that word from one of their children would be indescribable — Hanover

That's very interesting, because I have the opposite experience, growing up in Houston. My father always used the n-word to refer to African Americans (my mother didn't). His family were small-town farmer folks, and many of them were even worse (they invariably prefixed the n-word with "god damned"). I learned to not use the term based on becoming inspired by the civil rights movement, and (TBH) this resulted in my having a rather low opinion of my red-necked cousins and anyone who sounded like them. I loved my dad, but we had many arguments about his vocabulary - and he eventually stopped using the word (at least around me).

I find use of the word appalling and would never do it in any situation. What I find hard to understand is the feeling of many Americans that the word should never be mentioned either. So far as I know, it is the only word in the English language that is considered improper to mention. I can't help wondering how court cases are managed in the US when, in questioning a witness about what was said in the lead-up to a crime, that word is part of a sentence that was important to the evidence. I don't know of any words in any other language that get this treatment, although I do remember feeling that I had overstepped a mark when I once tried to discuss the exact meaning and use of the seven-letter C-word with a French person.

So far as I can see, the refusal to mention is a strictly American phenomenon, whereas horror at its use is worldwide. The no-mention phenomenon in some cases makes inroads into other cultures simply by dint of the huge exposure they have to US culture generally, just like sometimes people in other countries will think the emergency number is 911.

Out of deference for their deeply-held feelings and beliefs, I will never mention the word when Americans are around - as is the case here. I would also avoid both using and mentioning the three-letter G word when talking to ultra-orthodox Jews. But when talking to people from my own culture, I have no in-principle objection to mentioning the word or hearing it mentioned, although just like scatalogical, reproductive, sexist, homophobic or other racist obscenities, I avoid mentioning it as much as possible, and always slightly wince.

I think there's a difference between legitimizing the use of a derogatory pejorative like the N-word, and simply using it in the context of some academic purpose.

But, people are pretty sensitive to the word, despite it being dropped in almost every African-American rap song. I am a pretty sensitive person and even refrain from calling African-American's as "blacks". Personally, I can tell the difference between the academic intent of using the N-word... Doublethink, is there really any academic purpose referring to African American's like the N-word? I don't think so...

The N word problem again. We are all grown up here so we can actually write the word: Niggard! There I wrote it. Watch the ceiling collapse.

Peak niggard was at least as far back as 1800, according to Google Ngram. It comes from somewhere in whitest Scandinavia, at least as far back as 1400 give or take 15 minutes, when the Middle English started using it. Those creeps.

"Nigger" can't be verboten, because I hear Negroes (another N Word) who perform rap using it almost continuously. If it were so insulting, they surely wouldn't use it. Just like I don't hear people describing themselves as "niggardly". Usually not, anyway.

"Jew" strikes my ear as problematic. One can't read periods in European or American history without seeing the term used again and again as a vicious epithet. One almost hesitates to use the word at all.

Not as traumatic as there of course, yet slavery, segregation and the hangings of blacks simply is an issue that white America has a problem with. — ssu

But not nearly as big a problem as black America has. Frankly, I don't know why we white people should have much of a problem with it -- after all, white people were owners not slaves, and white children went to the better schools, and were rarely if ever lynched (though it did happen, but not in quite the same context as black lynchings). White people got the better end of the stick, which somebody always does.

Losing those feelings of racial guilt will help us white folks deal with the bad hands that have been consistently dealt to black folks. After all, most of us have not had the opportunity to personally oppress black people. Most of us (like 99%) were not involved in writing the Federal Housing Administration rules back in the 1930s. Those rules were the key tool of post Jim Crow oppression -- creating the modern black slum and white suburbs. Those rules set the pattern for continuing segregated schooling. Quality of school and place of residence are geographically linked.

Most of us weren't personally responsible for maintaining the long term impoverishment of blacks, and the resulting degrading slums.

Guilt doesn't always lead to repentance. Sometimes it leads us to hate some people even more. Racial hatreds have long been used to divide the working classes. As the song says,

...That if you don't let race hatred break you up,
You'll win. What I mean, take it easy, but take it! — Songwriters: Peter Seeger / Lee Hays / Millard Lampell

Watch the ceiling collapse. — Bitter Crank

Blast off!

I do remember feeling that I had overstepped a mark when I once tried to discuss the exact meaning and use of the six-letter C-word with a French person — andrewk

What word was that? Cospic? Crutle? Cuckoo? Confus? Christ? Caudal?

Oh common, tell us...

My question is whether this social convention of never uttering the N-word is a reasonable act of respect or whether it's simply a politically imposed rule that can be used to divide and destroy? — Hanover

I'm strongly against the use of "the N-word" in place of the actual word for ethical reasons. The word is "nigger", and context matters, and sensitivity to the word "nigger" - regardless of context - is counterproductive, as it empowers the word and enables its use as a weapon. I will only use "the N-word" if I feel I have to.

Blacks (African Americans, err, Negroes... niggers?) use "nigger" in the same way that cock suckers use "queer". Ameliorating the term "queer" or "nigger" is a way of disarming the term when it comes out of the mouths of people who hate the people to whom the term is applied.

The solution to the problem is common sense. If you need to use it in an academic context or otherwise, do it sensitively. E.g. Don't keep repeating it over and over unnecessarily like the Dem apparently did.

My thought, as a fairly conservative Republican, is that she ought not be censured and forced to apologize because her intent was not to do harm. — Hanover

Agree. She ought to simply be given a lesson in how not to be stupid with words. Speaking of which:

Blacks (African Americans, err, Negroes... niggers?) use "nigger" in the same way that cock suckers use "queer". — Bitter Crank

Maybe you can stop being an idiot about this now especially as this was discussed before and it was explained in detail to you where you were going wrong.

What word was that? Cospic? Crutle? Cuckoo? Confus? Christ? Caudal? — Bitter Crank

It's a French word. Two syllables. First syllable is the Italian word for 'with'. Second syllable is a Cockney adjectival word for a person being tough, aggressive and not slow to violence. As always in Cockney, you drop the initial 'h'.

Given that the average IQ of a college student is somewhere above 100, then I don't think it serves any purpose to tell them that the N-word is a bad word. That's usually covered in elementary school...

Then again, even those with severe retardation are aware of the negative connotations of using the N-word.

Perhaps, the teachers need some more education and not the students in the news-feed provided.

B-word people (AA err, N word, n word?) use "the n word" in the same way that "c s word" use the "Q word". Ameliorating the term "Q word" or "n word" is a way of disarming the term when it comes out of the mouths of people who hate the people to whom the "x" word is applied.

"Now quiet down children, you know we aren't allowed to reveal what the "..." words are until you are at least 18--possibly 28. So you are 13 now -- you will just have to wait until you are all grown up."

The solution to the problem is common sense. If you need to use it in an academic context or otherwise, do it sensitively. E.g. Don't keep repeating it over and over unnecessarily like the Dem apparently did. — Baden

That's not a solution to the problem in the bigger picture, which is that it shouldn't even be an issue to begin with. The power shouldn't be in the hands of those people who are sensitive. They should learn to desensitise in appropriate contexts or leave the class.

Given that the average IQ of a college student is somewhere above 100, then I don't think it serves any purpose to tell them that the N-word is a bad word. That's usually covered in elementary school...

Then again, even those with severe retardation are aware of the negative connotations of using the N-word.

Perhaps, the teachers need education and not the students in the news-feed provided. — Wallows

There's no such thing as a bad word, only bad usage. The belief in bad words is what's childish. My close friend and I call each other cunts all the time. To us that's not a bad word, given the way that we use it. It is a lighthearted term of endearment.

I can't relate to the childish joy you get out of being ignorant about this. There are historical and linguistic reasons for the differences in context between how the word is used amongst black people and how it's used by white people about black people. We've been through it all before. But go ahead and drool over your own rebelliousness at not understanding some basic stuff.



You can shoot yourself in the foot to prove that you bleed or you can be a grown up and not make an issue out of it.

You can shoot yourself in the foot to prove that you bleed or you can be a grown up and not make an issue out of it. — Baden

What you call "being a grown up" is actually just counterproductive conformity over taking a stand. Like I said, your solution isn't a real solution, because it doesn't solve the real problem. It actually contributes to it. Obviously it's practical not to get yourself fired, and it might well be in your interest to act so as not to get yourself fired. That isn't saying anything insightful. But what's in your self-interest isn't always what's most principled, and it isn't in this case.

My close friend and I call each other cunts all the time. To us that's not a bad word, given the way that we use it. It is a lighthearted term of endearment. — S

Oh, well I guess that this explains everything. Lock up the thread boys and girls, Zarathustra has spoken.

I'm reminded of the Orthodox Jews who refuse to write the name of God in a non-religious document because the name itself is holy. They write God as G-d, and have their own way of changing the word in the Hebrew as well. The word itself seems to be a deity. It's said that the correct pronunciation of Yahweh is now unknown due to it never being spoken. Perhaps that one day will become the fate of the N-word.

My question is whether this social convention of never uttering the N-word is a reasonable act of respect or whether it's simply a politically imposed rule that can be used to divide and destroy? — Hanover

The difference with the Jews was this is something internal to their own community. I am not in the U.S. now and have only ever been a tourist but when I was there last New York had just banned the N word from use and black artists had to fight for their exception for it to be used. The debate of the N-word goes back not only to the inflammatory/derogatory Ni... distinction being the devolved form of the more neutral Ne... distinction it is characteristic to hear Martin Luther King or Malcolm X use and that was only in the 60's. So it is safe to assume that the language as well as the culture is changing.

As for the entire question of the N-Word I come from a country where it was taboo to say it for decades so it is normal to me. I think the political division honestly comes from playing up the value of the word itself... whether you say the word or not it doesn't address educational or economic equality. It just seems like a left vs. right identity politics game, that will escalate when the white population becomes a majority minority in the U.S. I feel that the entire conversation of racism in America is absurd because of the conceptual impossibility of it for other races to be racist against whites.Wait until it becomes white people get hate speech laws too and black people can't call them cracker arguments...

Moreover the fastest demographic growing are mixed races how are you goig to tell someone 'you can't understand black people' when they have white skin but their mother or father is black. Flip side how are you going to tell someone of color that 'they are not one of your people' when their parent is 'not one of the people' you assumed them to be ? Does that then make them half a person...

What will kill the country and true inclusion isn't a word but a diversity that is skin deep.

I am sick of conversations of race and immigration in Australia it is about the rise of unemployment of Muslim refugees. Alot of these refugees are asylum seekers who are unable to speak English, I am sick of pretending they came here of their free will and volition and can be considered job ready members of a society from the get go. A refugee is by definition in plight and desperation, as one seeking refuge.

I am a little more left leaning in that in my empathy of value, but rhetorically the political left and right I find both repugnant and disgusting.

But not nearly as big a problem as black America has. — Bitter Crank

Well, the Jews had a problem with nazism too.

Yet in Western society we value self criticism. We want to be better, we want to improve things. We want to be good people. We have these ideals and we want to be just and tolerant, even permissive and so on, all the good things. Hence we look critically at our past and in many ways were other cultures might find just their glorious past and be proud of it, we think that in order to improve ourselves, we have to learn from our past mistakes. Nobody is for outright segregation or slavery as nobody is for taking away the vote and other rights from women.

This creates the present environment. Add to this that once the African Americans did have the obvious success with the civil rights movement, the intellectuals of this group use the same narrative that was so effective before, which btw is very typical to any movement that reaches it's basic primary objectives. Of course there is still racism as there are misogynists too, yet to understand the present discourse, our way of thinking about the history and culture has to be taken into account.

I've actually wondered where the racism and the bigotry comes from. I find it telling that white Americans use terms like white trash of their 'own' poor people. As if the last bastion for being a bigot is to be one at your own racial group. Such derogatory words for poor people were used in Finland only in the 19th Century or earlier, but not anymore. (I recall from history like the term loinen, parasite, for a person so poor that he or she was put to live by the authorities in someone else's home and typically got the salary in food.)

Holy suffering Christ, if the moral issue of the day is the right to say 'nigger' rather then 'The N-word' to a bunch of bored college students then gawd help us all. I've probably said both at one point or another during my teaching career, but I'd have zero problem following an explicit convention not to use the former. Anyway, good luck on your crusade. I suggest a primer around your local neighbourhood. At least you've got the NHS to sort things out for you when it all goes south.

Oh, well I guess that this explains everything. Lock up the thread boys and girls, Zarathustra has spoken. — Wallows

Is that sarcasm?

It doesn't explain everything, but it is an example which highlights the importance of context and the naivety of the belief in "bad words".

That's very interesting, because I have the opposite experience, growing up in Houston. My father always used the n-word to refer to African Americans (my mother didn't). His family were small-town farmer folks, and many of them were even worse (they invariably prefixed the n-word with "god damned"). — Relativist

That's consistent with my observation that its use revealed one's class. I think the same holds true in the African American community.

I can't relate to the childish joy you get out of being ignorant about this. — Baden

That's because you are suffering from humorless pedantry.

I understand it perfectly well, which is why I am opposed to words being judged "unspeakable". Childish rules call for a similar response. I do not use the word "nigger" in casual conversation or writing, but that does not mean I approve of anyone's ban on the word. Yes, Baden, I ridicule intelligent adults discussing language using circumlocutions like "the n word" when the word in question is "nigger". It's childish.

I'm strongly against the use of "the N-word" in place of the actual word for ethical reasons. The word is "nigger", and context matters, and sensitivity to the word "nigger" - regardless of context - is counterproductive, as it empowers the word and enables its use as a weapon. I will only use "the N-word" if I feel I have to. — S

You can only adhere to such standards if you have nothing to lose. It ignores that there are consequences for its use.

Holy suffering Christ, if the moral issue of the day is the right to say 'nigger' rather then 'The N-word' to a bunch of bored college students then gawd help us all. I've probably said both at one point or another during my teaching career, but I'd have zero problem following an explicit convention not to use the former. Anyway, good luck on your crusade. I suggest a primer around your local neighbourhood. At least you've got the NHS to sort things out for you when it all goes south. — Baden

Oh, stop with the ridiculous exaggeration. I'm not on a crusade, and it's not the moral issue of the day. There are far more important moral issues. But that doesn't mean that this isn't a moral issue, and that doesn't mean that you're right to trivialise it as you're doing. You're not even addressing the issue. Of what relevance is it supposed to be that you'd be a-okay with being a lap dog to political correctness in academia? That certainly doesn't mean that it is the most ethical course of action to take.

The solution to the problem is common sense. If you need to use it in an academic context or otherwise, do it sensitively. E.g. Don't keep repeating it over and over unnecessarily like the Dem apparently did. — Baden

The solution is just to never say it. The subjectivity of deciding when it can said and not and the severity of the consequences make it just too dangerous to say.

You weren't just doing that, you were repeating some tired old recycled stuff about black people using it etc. that we hear regularly from the morons on Fox News and don't expect to see puked up across the pages here by one of our more esteemed commentators (there you go, a backhanded compliment).

I do not use the word "nigger" in casual conversation or writing, but that does not mean I approve of anyone's ban on the word. Yes, Baden, I ridicule intelligent adults discussing language using circumlocutions like "the n word" when the word in question is "nigger". It's childish. — Bitter Crank

Exactly.

Is that sarcasm? — S

Well, analyzing one's intent even in college settings, where adults are often treated as children in elementary school is the deeper issue here, don't you think? And, this goes without mentioning that college tends to hypersensitize students, and not desensitize them, as much as you've like the latter to take place and not the former.