The solution is just to never say it. The subjectivity of deciding when it can said and not and the severity of the consequences make it just too dangerous to say. — Hanover

And that we are anonymous on this site proves the fear of possible consequences quite well.

I am not in the U.S. now and have only ever been a tourist but when I was there last New York had just banned the N word from use and black artists had to fight for their exception for it to be[ used — thedeadidea

The word can't be illegaluzed. It's protected by the Constitution. The Klan even has the right to march down the streets of Manhattan.

It's only horrible if white people say it. In a couple of centuries the average American will be brownish and sort of Latino looking. The N-word won't be a thing.

In two hundred years will it be ok to be vaguely anti-semitic because the barriers broke down between jews and gentiles and there really aren't any jews anymore?

You can only adhere to such standards if you have nothing to lose. It ignores that there are consequences for its use. — Hanover

How have you reached that conclusion from what I said? I said in the last sentence from the portion of text that you quoted that I will use "the N-word" when I feel I have to. That's because I don't ignore the consequences. It's coincidental that this topic has come up, because I recently had two conversations with two different people about racism and the use of racist language in various contexts. One of them got what I was saying completely, and we both used the word "nigger" with an understanding that it was acceptable in the context of our conversation. The other person disappointingly didn't quite get it, and so I used "the N-word" for his sake. Interestingly, the first person, the one who completely got where I was coming from, was mixed race, and he had experienced racism to a much greater degree than I myself have, and to a much greater degree than the other person has, who was overly-sensitive. The other person was white, like me.

Well, class figures in here. While upward mobility has been possible for a lot of people, downward mobility is an ever-present risk. Working people (which most people are) can sense many gradations in working class culture, from securely prosperous, to tentatively prosperous, departing prosperity, and so on down to rock bottom. Trailer trash and white trash are not the bottom, but they are close to it, and people are afraid of ending up there.

A lot of working class prosperity is quite shallow and operates paycheck to paycheck. Lose the job and the appearance of prosperity can fall apart. Depending on how much credit they are floating on, a family hit by adversity (losing the main job, or both jobs) can lose everything in a few months. people are afraid of that happening to them.

So, while they are riding high, they look down their noses on the people toward the bottom -- unsuccessful, poor, defeated, riff raff, trailer trash, white trash, white 'n's, and so on.

If pejorative class terms have disappeared from Finnish usage, my guess is that class distinctions have become smaller and people feel more secure. There are probably fewer poorer Finns, and poorer Finns are just poorer Finns, not a group representing a feared personal financial collapse.

But that doesn't mean that this isn't a moral issue, and that doesn't mean that you're right to trivialise it as you're doing. You're not even addressing the issue. Of what relevance is it supposed to be that you'd be a-okay with being a lap dog to political correctness in academia? — S

So easy for someone who's never been in a similar position of responsibility to say that. My moral issue as a teacher is first and foremost the welfare and education of my students. So, my moral risk would be, for example when teaching in China, saying something concerning human rights that might upset the authorities there but would have a potentially positive effect on said students. The idea that, if I were teaching in America, I should further the goal of helping my students by potentially insulting a significant number of them on some bogus free speech anti-PC trip, is, frankly, retarded.

You weren't just doing that, you were repeating some tired old recycled stuff about black people using it etc. that we hear regularly from the morons on Fox news and don't expect to see puked up across the pages here by one of our more esteemed commentators (there you go, a backhanded compliment). — Baden

The black community's use of the term doesn't help their cause in limiting its use. It is also problematic to use race as an excuse for behavior. If Trump casually used the N word, would your rage subside if he could prove he had a black grandmother? That seems a problematic standard.

No, because it's not the same speech behaviour. We've been through this. Activate your memory circuits.

The idea that, if I were teaching in America, ... — Baden

We just filled the last slot, but thank you for your interest.

I think I actually am going to come teach there. Just to piss you off.

No ecause it's not the same speech behaviour. We've been through this. Activate your memory circuits. — Baden

You're not talking about behavior. You're talking about intent which you decipher entirely by skin tone. if I use the term, I mean X, unless I tell you I'm black, and then I mean Y, regardless of whether I tell you I actually mean Z. If I have one black grandparent can I use the term with impunity?

So easy for someone who's never been in a similar position of responsibility to say that. My moral issue as a teacher is first and foremost the welfare and education of my students. So, my moral risk would be, for example when teaching in China, saying something concerning human rights that might upset the authorities there but would have a potentially positive effect on said students. The idea that, if I were teaching in America, I should further the goal of helping my students by potentially insulting a significant number of them on some bogus free speech anti-PC trip, is, frankly, retarded. — Baden

I haven't actually proposed a course of action. I'm simply acknowledging a problem and talking about ideals. You keep grossly misinterpreting my point, and that's quite irritating. I get that there are important practical considerations. I never said that people in academic positions should actually act on principles which, in an ideal setting, wouldn't get you fired or locked up. But that's precisely the problem. That we're in this situation to begin with! How about some acknowledgment of the problem instead of your attempts to set it aside as trivial or less important?

It's only horrible if white people say it. In a couple of centuries the average American will be brownish and sort of Latino looking. The N-word won't be a thing. — frank

Goobacks: we will become a hairless, uniform mix of all races, with the same skin color (a yellowy, light-brownish, whitish color), while our language will become a guttural mixture of all world languages.

I think I actually am going to come teach there. Just to piss you off. — Baden

Our immigration laws are really strict.

Silly. You don't get to be part of the black community by spending time in a tanning salon or suddenly discovering some black genes despite life-time entrenchment outside it.

More chimp-pig content, please.

I don't need it to be illegal in the actual sense, I just need to tie you up in so much bullshit you don't want to say it.... Do you know how many big businesses have destroyed small businesses by taking them to court and just drowning them in legal fees.... Such a point neglects Machiavellian strategy of speech codes, fine, contempt, social pressure, social media neighbourhood complaints procedures, court cases, appeals, your cash and time.... All the things I can do to bully you with authority to make you comply... I don't need you to agree only your silence...

I just need you to 'choose' the right to remain silent rather than speak. That is the project of the bullshit SJW city councils.

I don't agree with this approach to things at all, but this is the kind of political atmosphere we are dealing with now, less over the table and more rules for radicals.

That's correct.

In a couple of centuries the averahe American will be brownish and sort of Latino looking. The N-word won't be a thing. — frank

I'm thinking the predictions made in 1819 about what 2019 would look like are pretty much wrong.

I don't see a big problem. Because the cost of not offending here is one syllable. What is the major issue for you? Go ahead and present your argument.

Polemics are my favorites... people come here for a good debate and disagreement... Philosophy in many cases is merely the feigning of civility, the toying with truth and purpose of meaning for what is rhetoric and debate and intent.

One should not fear the man that scowls at him for you know where you stand fear the one that smiles while hiding a knife behind his back.

I guess I'll get a head start. I will found the Gooback's Rights Movement. From there we will launch the Goobacks political party. The rest is history in the making.

The idea that, if I were teaching in America, I should further the goal of helping my students by potentially insulting a significant number of them on some bogus free speech anti-PC trip, is, frankly, retarded. — Baden

You wouldn't do that, I wouldn't do that, and most people wouldn't do that. The overwhelming majority of people don't. A good share of my work life was involved working with very disadvantaged black people (white people, too). I never used the racially insensitive language with them. Our discussion here, though, is not a classroom or a social service. It is public, and is one of the few settings (like a college classroom) where language can and should be discussed honestly.

If someone says, "Those god damned n word don't belong in a civilized country." that would be unacceptable in any public conversation (and a lot of private ones). Referencing the word 'nigger' explicitly when talking about that very word should not, and I think would not be taken as an insult in most settings -- except those where persons are wired up to react to a list of verboten terms.

Silly. You don't get to be part of the black community by spending time in a tanning salon or suddenly discovering some black genes despite life-time entrenchment outside it. — Baden

So now you're offering the "you gotra live it" definition. Does Eminem get a pass? What about the Huxtables? Do they lose their pass?

I don't see a big problem. Because the cost of not offending here is one syllable. What is the major issue for you? Go ahead and present your argument. — Baden

The issue is the people who think that their taking offence at something that's been said means that they're in the right and can force others into submission. That's the issue. Especially when they're wrong. Whether that's a major issue or a minor issue is relative. Sure, compared to, say, the war in Yemen, this is about as minor as minor can get. But I shouldn't have to refrain from talking sensibly just because other people are dumb or overly-sensitive or both. Ideally, this wouldn't be an issue, but of course it is an issue, because there are a whole bunch of people who are dumb or overly-sensitive or both.

The idea that, if I were teaching in America, I should further the goal of helping my students by potentially insulting a significant number of them on some bogus free speech anti-PC trip, is, frankly, retarded. — Baden

You shouldnt use the word "retarded" anymore. It's somewhat insulting to those parents of the intellectually challenged who would rather not have their already struggling children considered as subhuman.

"Fucked up" would have been a better choice in your sentence.

You'll have to ask the black community who's in the black community, obviously. But again, we've been through all this before: "nigger" vs "nigga", BEV etc. You can bemoan the fact that linguistic communities have insider/outsider conventions wrt language use and that the "nigger/nigga" pair is a prime example, but that's just social reality.

It's somewhat insulting to those parents of the intellectually challenged who would rather not have their already struggling children considered as subhuman. — Hanover

Give your mum my apologies.

Polemics are my favorites... — thedeadidea

OK, I'll be a pig and you be chimp. We will then proceed in creating some chimp-pig content.

I'm thinking the predictions made in 1819 about what 2019 would look like are pretty much wrong. — Hanover

A white person saying "n" melds nicely into the image of the mythical slave owner. That's why it's offensive. The ghosts of slave owners and slaves abound in our world because there are yet people who look like they did.

Racial difference keeps slavery and Jim Crow alive just as the existence of Jews keeps the holocaust alive, meaningful, and therefore painful.

If we take away that difference in this blended world that I spoke of, what you'd find is that people would run to some other difference. They would find the pain. People always will find the pain because that's where the drama is.