leo
249
Ahhh...practicing to be a psychologist by doing cyber-analysis. — Frank Apisa
Actually for now I'm guessing that you have some issues related to the concept of believing, that's not meant to be an attack that's an hypothesis as to why you react the way you do, and if you consider it seriously and do some introspection that might help you. But if you keep reacting like that this hypothesis might turn into a belief.
I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
I DO NOT DO BELIEVING. — Frank Apisa
So...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa
That is why I say I do not do "believing"...because I don't. — Frank Apisa
I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa
But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
...I do not do believing. — Frank Apisa
But I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
I am not doing "believing." — Frank Apisa
Do you have a problem with that? — Frank Apisa
What is your fucking problem? — Frank Apisa
There are so many things to focus on, yet you seem most focused on making other people know and accept that you "do not do believing". I have seen you do that on at least one other thread. When people disagree with you, you respond with passive-aggressiveness, or you attack them. It doesn't take a psychologist to notice that you fixate on it and you react very strongly to it. When people stop replying to you you consider you have them convinced, but really you're just driving them away.
When a person says, "I believe there is a god"...all they are doing is saying, "It is my blind guess that there is at least one god in the REALITY"...but they are pretending they are saying something else. They are disguising the fact that they are making a blind guess by calling it a "belief." — Frank Apisa
It is not "all they are doing", because they also think and act as if this god exists, sometimes they feel him, they expect to meet him at some point, all that they wouldn't do if they were just blindly guessing.
Did you have help constructing that abomination of a sentence...or did you do it on your own, perhaps while under the influence? — Frank Apisa
In terms that you can understand, YOU DO BELIEVING, even if you don't say it, and even if you don't realize it.
I gave an example, in that example you hold a belief, the way belief is defined, so by the definition of belief you do believing. Now you keep saying that you do not do believing, but that's not in accordance with the definition of belief, because by that definition you do believing. — leo
I DO NOT DO BELIEVING.
I do understanding; guessing; supposing; estimating...and all that kind of stuff that others call "believing."
But I call my guesses, suppositions, and estimations...guesses, suppositions and estimations.
I DO NOT EVER CALL THEM BELIEFS. — Frank Apisa
Terrapin Station
9.1k
I DO NOT DO BELIEVING.
I do understanding; guessing; supposing; estimating...and all that kind of stuff that others call "believing."
But I call my guesses, suppositions, and estimations...guesses, suppositions and estimations.
I DO NOT EVER CALL THEM BELIEFS. — Frank Apisa
You might not call them beliefs--that's fine, but you're doing what I name "belief" when you assert things like "I do not do believing." You can call it something else. What we name it doesn't really matter. Many of us just happen to name "that thing" "belief." — Terrapin Station
(the story in the OP is just to serve as an example of how people work against inconvenient realities and such). Most people fight for their beliefs not because they understand them or on the merit of the belief's integrity but because they hope to convince themselves that they are right to believe. For most people beliefs have to be ultimate and incontrovertible even when they consider themselves fallible humans. These people, when they believe, they enslave themselves to those beliefs. — BrianW
Fine.
YOU do "believing."
I do not.
As to the immediate question of whether any gods exist or not...
...do you blindly guess there are gods or blindly guess there are no gods?
Me...I do not blindly guess in either direction. — Frank Apisa
leo
250
↪Frank Apisa
You haven't addressed any of my points, you just keep repeating again and again that you "do not do believing". This type of behavior is precisely that of people who believe strongly in something. You believe strongly that you "do not do believing".
How did you arrive at this conclusion that you "do not do believing"? Look at the dictionary definition of belief, "confidence in something", "acceptance that something is true", do you never do that? When you are confident in something, by definition you believe in that thing. When you accept that something is true, by definition you believe in it. By definition you DO believing. You just don't like to call it believing, maybe because you don't want to see yourself and be seen on the same level as the people who believe in a god.
So ok you do not believe there is a god, and you don't believe there is no god, but you believe that you can't know either way, which is a belief by definition: you're confident that you can't know either way, you accept as true that you can't know either way.
However, some people have had experiences that they interpret as being in contact with god, as feeling god, so they're not blindly guessing, they're making an educated guess, they become confident that there is a god, and they choose to believe it, to accept it as true. — leo
Terrapin Station
9.1k
Fine.
YOU do "believing."
I do not.
As to the immediate question of whether any gods exist or not...
...do you blindly guess there are gods or blindly guess there are no gods?
Me...I do not blindly guess in either direction. — Frank Apisa
You do what-I-and-most-people-call-"believing" but what-you-idiosyncratically-call-something-else.
Re the question of gods, I know there are none, based on lots of different evidence. — Terrapin Station
They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
Pattern-chaser
1.1k
They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
Then what word (label) do you use to describe the things you think you know? — Pattern-chaser
Pattern-chaser
1.1k
They are not my "beliefs", mostly because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
Then what word (label) do you use to describe the things you think you know? — Pattern-chaser
Pattern-chaser
1.1k
↪Frank Apisa
Personally, I use "believe" to describe anything I think is true. I use "know" to describe things that I'm a lot more sure about. But this seems to be a personal convention, even though (in philosophy forums) there is a clear need for these two terms, or two that offer the same semantic functionality.
Your wish to describe wild guesses as wild guesses is commendable; admirable. But your insistence that you don't do believing leads only to confusion, I think, as it isn't 100% clear what you mean by that. Whoever said communication was easy? :wink: — Pattern-chaser
So you think it is idiosyncratic of me to call my blind guesses...blind guesses? — Frank Apisa
Why are these other two guys so upset with that? — Frank Apisa
If a person says, "I blindly guess that there is a GOD"...that is not going to carry much weight. We would not have as many organizations (national and international) with the intention of "protecting" the right of people to blindly guess about gods. — Frank Apisa
Terrapin Station
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So you think it is idiosyncratic of me to call my blind guesses...blind guesses? — Frank Apisa
It's idiosyncratic to not call them beliefs when it's something you'd assert. Whether they're conventionally blind guesses hinges on whether you have any supporting empirical evidence, logical argumentation, etc. for them.
31 minutes ago
Reply
Options — Terrapin Station
leo
251
Why are these other two guys so upset with that? — Frank Apisa
Notice that you are the one getting upset. — leo
If a person says, "I blindly guess that there is a GOD"...that is not going to carry much weight. We would not have as many organizations (national and international) with the intention of "protecting" the right of people to blindly guess about gods. — Frank Apisa
Precisely because there is a difference between a belief and a blind guess. Why else would a belief carry more weight than a blind guess? — Leo
I mentioned this in a previous post but you didn't address it. When someone believes that there is a god, they think and act as if this god exists, sometimes they feel him, they expect to meet him at some point, all that they wouldn't do if they were just blindly guessing. By the very definition of belief, they are confident of the existence of a god, they accept the existence of a god as true, which is not what they would do if they were blindly guessing. — Leo
Do you still use the word "confident", as in you're confident such or such thing is going to happen? Are you sometimes confident of something? If so, you do believing, again by the definition of belief. — Leo
But you and the other guy are the ones telling me that I should call my guesses "beliefs" for no good reason. — Frank Apisa
On the question of whether there are any gods or not...any "belief" expressed is NOTHING but a blind guess. — Frank Apisa
Because that is all they are doing...blindly guessing there is a god. — Frank Apisa
I do use "confident" the way you are suggesting, but I know there is a bit of bullshit involved. Bottom line, I only use it in situations where who cares. I am confident the GIANTS made the right moves; I am confident that my short game will come around. That kind of thing. — Frank Apisa
They are the same thing when dealing with fundamental questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...like, "Are there any gods or not?"
They are nothing but blind guesses. — Frank Apisa
I think we share similar lines of thought with respect to what belief is. However, I have this question I've wanted to ask someone, so here goes - often we try to reconcile knowledge in such a way that it matches that of others, for the most part, about a particular object/subject. So, is belief something that we should also attempt to reconcile? Or, is subjectivity one of the main aspects of belief and therefore they must remain isolated from those of others regardless of any commonalities. — BrianW
leo
253
But you and the other guy are the ones telling me that I should call my guesses "beliefs" for no good reason. — Frank Apisa
You can call your guesses guesses, but you're mistaking yourself if you 'believe' that you have no beliefs. Again, look at the dictionary definition of belief. — leo
On the question of whether there are any gods or not...any "belief" expressed is NOTHING but a blind guess. — Frank Apisa
This is false. One who has felt god has their belief based in part on subjective evidence, so it is not a blind guess. — Leo
Because that is all they are doing...blindly guessing there is a god. — Frank Apisa
Their belief may be based on a blind guess or on their education or on what they want or on their past experiences, but you can't reduce all they are doing to "blindly guessing", there is much more to it than that. People don't dedicate their life to a blind guess. Their belief shapes their whole life and how they see the world, they live by their belief every passing moment, you can't reduce it to a blind guess like blindly guessing the result of the next football game. — Leo
I do use "confident" the way you are suggesting, but I know there is a bit of bullshit involved. Bottom line, I only use it in situations where who cares. I am confident the GIANTS made the right moves; I am confident that my short game will come around. That kind of thing. — Frank Apisa
It is customary to use the word belief in these cases too, "I believe they made the right move", "I believe it will come around". And you're not only using it in situations where it is inconsequential. Say you're crossing the road and you see a car racing towards you, you may be confident that if you run forward you will avoid it, but if you're wrong you die. — Leo
Or say you lived at a time where it was commonly accepted that the Sun revolved around the Earth, you would see the Sun move across the sky and you would be confident that the Sun revolves around the Earth, you would believe that, by the definition of belief. Today you may accept as true that the Earth revolves around the Sun, which is by definition a belief. — Leo
So if you are confident about things, or you accept things as true, you do believing, by the definition of belief. — Leo
They are the same thing when dealing with fundamental questions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...like, "Are there any gods or not?"
They are nothing but blind guesses. — Frank Apisa
People who have felt god do not base their belief in a god on a blind guess. — Go
If you consider that the people who feel god blindly guess that the feeling they experience is that of god, then if we go down that rabbit hole it is a blind guess that other people have a consciousness, it is a blind guess that there is an external world that exists independently of you, so why do you focus on people who believe in a god or not?
Besides I have no problem with people basing their belief on a blind guess, or on whatever, the problem is when they try to force their belief onto others.
fresco
3
:smile:
I see Frank is still trying to rationalise his escape from the Church ministry by brandishing his simplistic shield emblazoned with the word 'Guess' at all antagonists,. It is indeed a pity that, after all these years,he does not seem familiar with the plethora of epistemological literature available.
fresco. — fresco
leo
254
I think we share similar lines of thought with respect to what belief is. However, I have this question I've wanted to ask someone, so here goes - often we try to reconcile knowledge in such a way that it matches that of others, for the most part, about a particular object/subject. So, is belief something that we should also attempt to reconcile? Or, is subjectivity one of the main aspects of belief and therefore they must remain isolated from those of others regardless of any commonalities. — BrianW
I think that knowledge is not independent of belief. Knowledge about a particular object/subject will be formulated in a framework that depends on the beliefs of the person formulating that knowledge. So for instance, in one framework the Sun can be described as a giant ball of incandescent plasma heated by the nuclear fusion in its core that has such and such properties, while in another framework the Sun can be described as a God with such and such characteristics.
And then when we try to reconcile knowledge with that of others, isn't it that we're fundamentally already attempting to reconcile beliefs? — leo
It may be customary...BUT I DO NOT DO IT. I DO NOT DO BELIEVING. — Frank Apisa
I would "accept it as so." Yes...and today there are things I "accept as so." BUT I REFUSE TO USE THE WORD "BELIEVE" TO DISGUISE WHAT I AM DOING. I USE "I ACCEPT IT AS SO."
That is because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
Any assertion that "there is a god" or "there are no gods" is nothing but a blind guess. It might as well be based on a coin toss...as the "subjective evidence" you pretend exists. — Frank Apisa
I KNOW what the dictionary definition of "belief" is. But I do not do "believing"...because I do not use the word to disguise a guess, estimate, opinion, or supposition. — Frank Apisa
"We Don't Want To Believe - Because, If We Believe, Then..."
Read the OP...and take a look how this one poster uses the word "believe" in what he has to say.
The use of the word is what makes the issue nonsense. Each time he could have used "do you guess or suppose"...and everything could have been clearer. — Frank Apisa
leo
255
It may be customary...BUT I DO NOT DO IT. I DO NOT DO BELIEVING. — Frank Apisa
I would "accept it as so." Yes...and today there are things I "accept as so." BUT I REFUSE TO USE THE WORD "BELIEVE" TO DISGUISE WHAT I AM DOING. I USE "I ACCEPT IT AS SO."
That is because I do not do "believing." — Frank Apisa
So you agree that you do what people do when they say they "believe" something. And you agree that they do believing. So logically, you do believing, you just don't call it that.
Why get so worked up about the word "belief", what is the terrible thing that would happen if you used that word? — leo
Any assertion that "there is a god" or "there are no gods" is nothing but a blind guess. It might as well be based on a coin toss...as the "subjective evidence" you pretend exists. — Frank Apisa
Subjective evidence exists to the people who experience it. A blind person will have no idea what the color blue is like, but surely that doesn't imply you don't see colors. So just because you have not experienced god, doesn't imply others haven't. — Leo
I KNOW what the dictionary definition of "belief" is. But I do not do "believing"...because I do not use the word to disguise a guess, estimate, opinion, or supposition. — Frank Apisa
If you know the dictionary definition of "belief", then you know that belief is not identical with a guess, or an estimate, or an opinion, or a supposition. So why do you keep attempting to equate belief with them? — Leo
Confidence in something, or the acceptance of something as true, is not a guess, nor an estimate, nor an opinion, nor a supposition. — Leo
"We Don't Want To Believe - Because, If We Believe, Then..."
Read the OP...and take a look how this one poster uses the word "believe" in what he has to say.
The use of the word is what makes the issue nonsense. Each time he could have used "do you guess or suppose"...and everything could have been clearer. — Frank Apisa
If you attempt to replace belief in what the OP says with something else, you're changing what the OP says.
The concept of belief is useful, you have the right not to use it, but stop saying there is no need to use it because you believe that it is the same as a guess or a supposition. — Leo
You're even contradicting yourself, because if to you "believe" means the same thing as "guess", then it would be as clear to use the word "believe" than to use the word "guess", yet you say that everything would have been clearer if "guess" was used instead of "believe". — Leo
If you agree that "believe" and "guess" are not the same, stop saying they are the same. And if you consider that "believe" and "guess" are the same, stop saying that it is clearer to use "guess" rather than "believe". — Leo
You have an internal conflict about the word "belief",
I'm not being condescending.. — Leo
...it's just what transpires through your posts, as shown by the self-contradiction above. And I believe that you need to engage in some introspection to find out why that is.
So...if I know them to be blind guesses...you think it to be idiosyncratic for me to call them blind guesses rather than to use "believe????????????????????????????" — Frank Apisa
Terrapin Station
9.1k
So...if I know them to be blind guesses...you think it to be idiosyncratic for me to call them blind guesses rather than to use "believe????????????????????????????" — Frank Apisa
If you're really making blind guesses about something, how about spending some time rationally analyzing the issue at hand, and then examining empirical evidence, logical argumentation, etc. as appropriate? — Terrapin Station
Terrapin Station
9.1k
↪Frank Apisa
Yes. Obviously I disagree with you on that.
You do not believe that there would be any evidence or logical argumentation or rational facts, etc. that would suggest one answer versus another? — Terrapin Station
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