By your own definition of belief, you are believing. If I see you drink water and you say that you DO NOT DO DRINKING, I will let you say that if that's so important to you, but I will still say that you drink water.

In a philosophy forum...one expects greater care with wording. — Frank Apisa

It's not a lack of care with wording. You can't parse speech like a robot. You won't understand a huge percentage of what people say if you do that.

No they are not. They are making a totally blind guess... — Frank Apisa

If they say, "Flowers are evidence that God exists. Flowers couldn't be as they are without there being a God," then that's not a blind guess. It's based on evidence. If an assertion is based on evidence, it's not a blind guess.

leo
262
↪Frank Apisa


By your own definition of belief, you are believing. If I see you drink water and you say that you DO NOT DO DRINKING, I will let you say that if that's so important to you, but I will still say that you drink water. — leo

Try to get over it, Leo.

I do not do "believing."

I make guesses...and call them guesses.

I estimate things...and call them estimates.

I suppose things...and call them suppositions.

Some people do all those things...and then substitute the word "believe" for guess, estimate, and suppose.

You seem so bothered by the fact that I do not do that.

Terrapin Station
9.1k

In a philosophy forum...one expects greater care with wording. — Frank Apisa


It's not a lack of care with wording. You can't parse speech like a robot. You won't understand a huge percentage of what people say if you do that. — Terrapin Station

Some people say, "I do not believe any gods exist"...and actually mean, "I believe there are no gods."

That is sloppiness in a discussion in a philosophy forum.

No they are not. They are making a totally blind guess... — Frank Apisa


If they say, "Flowers are evidence that God exists. Flowers couldn't be as they are without there being a God," then that's not a blind guess. It's based on evidence. If an assertion is based on evidence, it's not a blind guess.

It is blind guess...no matter what.

In any case, IF there is a creator GOD...then flowers are evidence that there is a GOD. Shit also would be evidence of that GOD. So would everything else that exists.

IF a GOD exists.

Easy enough concept. You should be able to get it.

I do not do "believing."

I make guesses...and call them guesses.

I estimate things...and call them estimates.

I suppose things...and call them suppositions. — Frank Apisa

You do believing...and you don't call it believing.

Earlier you gave a definition for "guess": "an assertion (of sorts) that lacks sufficient information to be reasonably certain".

You say that you make guesses, because you make assertions that lack sufficient information to be reasonably certain, which fits your definition of "guess".

Then you gave a definition for "belief": "an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true".

You accepted something as true (English not being my first language), without having the evidence to actually establish it as true, which fits your definition of "belief". And yet you will not say that you do believing.

There is zero conceptual difference between the two cases, do you not see that? If something you do is described exactly by the word "believing", as defined by you, why won't you use that word? Why do you do that for that word and not any other?

leo
263

I do not do "believing."

I make guesses...and call them guesses.

I estimate things...and call them estimates.

I suppose things...and call them suppositions. — Frank Apisa


You do believing...and you don't call it believing. — leo

I do not do "believing."

Earlier you gave a definition for "guess": "an assertion (of sorts) that lacks sufficient information to be reasonably certain".

You say that you make guesses, because you make assertions that lack sufficient information to be reasonably certain, which fits your definition of "guess".

Then you gave a definition for "belief": "an acceptance of something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true".

You accepted something as true (English not being my first language), without having the evidence to actually establish it as true, which fits your definition of "belief". And yet you will not say that you do believing.

There is zero conceptual difference between the two cases, do you not see that? If something you do is described exactly by the word "believing", as defined by you, why won't you use that word?

First, allow me to repeat that I do not do "believing"...which, in many contexts, is using the word "believe" to disguise a guess, supposition, estimate...and that stuff.

When I make a guess...I call that guess a guess. I see no reason to pretend it is something else; no reason to disguise the fact that I am making a guess.

Some people do. Apparently you are one of them...and for some reason, you want to insist that everyone must do it also.

Well...I do not.

Why do you do that for that word and not any other? — Leo

What difference does that make?

I do it for that word.

Most of the time, as I have mentioned many times...it does not matter. I can easily say, "I believe the GIANTS will win their first game" or "I believe Donald Trump is the most disgusting human being ever to hold high office in the United States" or "I believe I will take a dump before going onto the golf course."

But I don't...because I would prefer to be consistent on this issue.

Just as easy for me to say, "I think the GIANTS will win their first game"; "I consider Donald Trump to be the most disgusting human being ever to hold high office in the United States"; or "I'm gonna take a dump before leaving for the course."

Why does any of that bother you so?

It is blind guess...no matter what. — Frank Apisa

No, it isn't. "Blind guess" implies that it's not based on any evidence or reasoning.

Terrapin Station
9.1k

It is blind guess...no matter what. — Frank Apisa


No, it isn't. "Blind guess" implies that it's not based on any evidence or reasoning. — Terrapin Station

"Blind guess"implies it is not based on any unambiguous evidence or reasoning.

Any blind guess about whether there are any gods or not...

...is not based on any unambiguous evidence or reasoning.

It is based on a blind guess.

Give me any unambiguous piece of evidence that a god exists (or that none exist)...and the "reasoning that supports it.

I'll even do part of your work for ya:

P1:

P2:

C: Therefore at least one god exists.

All you have to do is fill in the P1 and P2.

"Blind guess"implies it is not based on any unambiguous evidence or reasoning. — Frank Apisa

"Blind guess" implies it's not based on any evidence or reasoning period.

"Ambiguous"/"unambiguous" is relative/subjective. It depends on the meaning, if any, an individual assigns any evidence or reasoning.

Terrapin Station
9.1k

"Blind guess"implies it is not based on any unambiguous evidence or reasoning. — Frank Apisa


"Blind guess" implies it's not based on any evidence or reasoning period.

"Ambiguous"/"unambiguous" is relative/subjective. It depends on the meaning, if any, an individual assigns any evidence or reasoning. — Terrapin Station

Bullshit.

Any assertion made that at least one god exists...or that no gods exist...

...IS NOTHING BUT A BLIND GUESS.

And when people say, "I 'believe' (in) God" or "I 'believe' there are no gods"...

...all the are doing is sharing a blind guess...and disguising the fact that it is a blind guess by calling it a "belief."

To make things even funnier...they argue that their blind guesses are due respect...

...because they call them "beliefs."

See through this nonsense, Terrapin. You will be the better for it.

I would not use "a word" to describe the things I think I know, PC. I would say, "I think I know...x." — Frank Apisa

Do you think there is any significant conceptual, as opposed to a merely terminological, difference between "I think that I know x" and "I believe that I know x"

Janus
7.3k

I would not use "a word" to describe the things I think I know, PC. I would say, "I think I know...x." — Frank Apisa


Do you think there is any significant conceptual, as opposed to a merely terminological, difference between "i think that I know x" and "I believe that I know x" — Janus

A significant difference, Janus.

One uses the word "believe"...the other does not.

So...if I think that I know X and say, "I think that I know X"...I have described the situation to the max.

If instead I say, "I believe I know X"...I have muddied the waters a bit...FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Saying "I think I know X" works just fine.

Aside: This is not something I actually would do. If I were saying, "I think I know X"...what I am actually saying is that I am unsure...which means I do not KNOW it.

If I actually KNEW X...I would say, "I know X."

One uses the word "believe"...the other does not. — Frank Apisa

A merely terminological difference, so we can leave that aside, since it wasn't about that I was asking.

So...if I think that I know X and say, "I think that I know X"...I have described the situation to the max.

If instead I say, "I believe I know X"...I have muddied the waters a bit...FOR NO GOOD REASON. — Frank Apisa

I can understand what you are saying (since it written in a language I am fluent in) but I cannot understand why you are saying it. Can you provide some explanation of your reasoning?

When I make a guess...I call that guess a guess. I see no reason to pretend it is something else; no reason to disguise the fact that I am making a guess. — Frank Apisa

But we agreed that a guess and a belief are not the same thing, and you gave different definitions for them. So surely, when you do something that fits the definition of guessing you are making a guess, and when you do something that fits the definition of believing you are doing believing right? I honestly do not get what you don't understand about that.

Your definition for "believing": "accepting something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true".

I gave you an example of something you do that fits exactly your own definition of "believing".

You have the right to not use the word "believe" or "believing" to describe something you do that fits your definition for "believing". But do you at least agree that you do things that fit your own definition of "believing"?

First, allow me to repeat that I do not do "believing"...which, in many contexts, is using the word "believe" to disguise a guess, supposition, estimate...and that stuff. — Frank Apisa

In what context do people use the word "believe" to disguise a guess? When people say they believe in a god, by your definition they accept as true that there is a god, without having the evidence to establish it as true, and we agreed that this is different from making a guess, so they are not disguising a guess.

Janus
7.3k

One uses the word "believe"...the other does not. — Frank Apisa


A merely terminological difference, so we can leave that aside, since it wasn't about that I was asking.

So...if I think that I know X and say, "I think that I know X"...I have described the situation to the max.

If instead I say, "I believe I know X"...I have muddied the waters a bit...FOR NO GOOD REASON. — Frank Apisa


I can understand what you are saying (since it written in a language I am fluent in) but I cannot understand why you are saying it. Can you provide some explanation of your reasoning? — Janus

I've done that several times here, Janus.

For whatever reason, nobody here wants to accept (buy into, if you prefer) it.

The use of the word "believe" to disguise blind guesses about whether or not gods exist...and about the nature of any gods that are blindly guessed to exist...

...is at the heart of much of the trouble endured on planet Earth.

I simply have chosen to leave that behind in my personal life.

That seems to upset some people.

Nothing I can do about that.

If you have some specific questions...ask them and I may respond further.

leo
264

When I make a guess...I call that guess a guess. I see no reason to pretend it is something else; no reason to disguise the fact that I am making a guess. — Frank Apisa


But we agreed that a guess and a belief are not the same thing, and you gave different definitions for them. So surely, when you do something that fits the definition of guessing you are making a guess, and when you do something that fits the definition of believing you are doing believing right? I honestly do not get what you don't understand about that.

Your definition for "believing": "accepting something as true...without having the evidence to actually establish it as true".

I gave you an example of something you do that fits exactly your own definition of "believing".

You have the right to not use the word "believe" or "believing" to describe something you do that fits your definition for "believing". But do you at least agree that you do things that fit your own definition of "believing"?

First, allow me to repeat that I do not do "believing"...which, in many contexts, is using the word "believe" to disguise a guess, supposition, estimate...and that stuff. — Frank Apisa


In what context do people use the word "believe" to disguise a guess? When people say they believe in a god, by your definition they accept as true that there is a god, without having the evidence to establish it as true, and we agreed that this is different from making a guess, so they are not disguising a guess. — leo

Leo...we have discussed this to death...and you apparently have decided you will not accept my take on things.

Fine.

Go do your "believing."

I will not do any "believing"...although I will continue occasionally to make guesses (which I will call guesses); occasionally make suppositions (which I will call suppositions); occasionally make estimates (which I will call estimating)...and the world will continue to rotate on its axis and continue to travel around the sun.

Okay. I take it you quoted Jabberwocky in the misguided view that since Lewis Carroll concerned himself with 'nonsense' then his significant observation about 'power' regarding meaning should be ignored. (The fact that Carroll was perhaps linguistically ahead of his time in recognizing the significance of syntax for semantics, of course deflates the simplistic label 'nonsense poem' but such analysis would do your mission no favours, woud it ? :wink: )

fresco
20
↪Frank Apisa


Okay. I take it you quoted Jabberwocky in the misguided view that since Lewis Carroll concerned himself with 'nonsense' then his significant observation about 'power' regarding meaning should be ignored. (The fact that Carroll was perhaps linguistically ahead of his time in recognizing the significance of syntax for semantics, of course deflates the simplistic label 'nonsense poem' but such analysis would do your mission no favours, woud it ? :wink: ) — fresco

Yeah...all that, plus one of my favorite places on this planet is the statue of Alice in Central Park. I visit Alice each time I go to the park...and all around her are Jabberwocky quotes.

ALICE (one of the truly great statues of this world):



The plaque...(notice the misspelling of borogoves):

Any assertion made that at least one god exists...or that no gods exist...

...IS NOTHING BUT A BLIND GUESS. — Frank Apisa

Must. Repeat. The. Mantra.

At the end of the day you do what you want. I just find it peculiar that you react this way with believing and not with any other concept. If you say that you bring a glass of water to your mouth and swallow the water, I would say well you drink water, but if you insist that "NO I DO NOT DO DRINKING" then I wonder, why this reaction?

Don't you see that you accepting as true that English is not my first language, without having the evidence to establish it as true, is you believing, precisely because this is how you defined believing?

If you say that there are things you believe, but you never say "I believe", I can understand. But if you insist that you do not believe anything, while we have proof of the contrary, then I don't understand your point of view.


As to the idea that beliefs are guesses in disguise, to believe is to assert something as true (while not having sufficient evidence), while to guess is to assert something without claiming it is true. I agree with your idea that beliefs are sometimes based on guesses, and I agree that it is wrong to claim that something believed is objective truth, but I don't agree that a belief is a guess in disguise, because believing something is seeing it as subjective truth, which is definitely not the same as guessing.

Terrapin Station
9.1k

Any assertion made that at least one god exists...or that no gods exist...

...IS NOTHING BUT A BLIND GUESS. — Frank Apisa


Must. Repeat. The. Mantra. — Terrapin Station

It is so

leo
265
↪Frank Apisa


At the end of the day you do what you want. I just find it peculiar that you react this way with believing and not with any other concept. If you say that you bring a glass of water to your mouth and swallow the water, I would say well you drink water, but if you insist that "NO I DO NOT DO DRINKING" then I wonder, why this reaction?

Don't you see that you accepting as true that English is not my first language, without having the evidence to establish it as true, is you believing, precisely because this is how you defined believing?

If you say that there are things you believe, but you never say "I believe", I can understand. But if you insist that you do not believe anything, while we have proof of the contrary, then I don't understand your point of view.


As to the idea that beliefs are guesses in disguise, to believe is to assert something as true (while not having sufficient evidence), while to guess is to assert something without claiming it is true. I agree with your idea that beliefs are sometimes based on guesses, and I agree that it is wrong to claim that something believed is objective truth, but I don't agree that a belief is a guess in disguise, because believing something is seeing it as subjective truth, which is definitely not the same as guessing. — leo

One...I do not do "believing."

Two...any "belief" about whether gods exist or not...is nothing but a blind guess.

Three...I do not do "believing."