But that would mean the configuration and recognition of cards is independent of its immediate certainty; is it? — Shamshir

This is a broad issue. But, sticking to solipsism, nothing exists beyond my immediacy, which may or may not include my recognition of an object, or an object's attributes and relations.

Solipsim is one of the most complete and coherent perspectives. But, this does not equate to the best perspective.

Humor this.

If

The certainty of immediacy is independent of the configuration of the cards, and even of the recognition of cards. — Merkwurdichliebe

And

the configuration and recognition of cards is independent of its immediate certainty — Shamshir

Then the solipsist, exists independently of immediacy, and is not necessarily immediate.
By that, here's a wild notion - the moment you are immediate, you are not solipsistic.
Limiting the solipsist to immediacy, expels him from, for lack of a better word, the yet.

the configuration and recognition of cards is independent of its immediate certainty — Shamshir

That is not a concern for the solipsist, unless this thought happens to occur in his immediacy. For normal chumps like you, TPF, and me, that the configuration and identity of the cards is maintained independent of my immediate certainty is essential, and quite fun to discuss philosophically.

The issue I'm proposing is that the solipsist should be incapable of immediacy and following from that - experience. As a whole, the solipsist is incapable.

Which would entertain the idea, as to the personifications of the Godhead - which are necessary for the Godhead to experience and be immediate and do anything.

As a whole, the solipsist is incapable. — Shamshir

I completely agree.

But don't discount the importance of your own immediacy just because the solipsist takes it overboard. Immediacy is the fundamental relation? of the individual. I hold the individual in high esteem. The more original, the higher.

But don't discount the importance of your own immediacy just because the solipsist takes it overboard. — Merkwurdichliebe

I would never discount the immediate part of my own partly-immediate cohesion; partly because I don't know how.

I would never discount the immediate part of my own partly-immediate cohesion; partly because I don't know how. — Shamshir

That immediate part that you mention is all that matters to the solipsist, partly because he does not know how to move beyond that part with any confidence.

The difference between the solipsist and everybody else, is everybody else moves beyond it.

That immediate part that you mention is all that matters to the solipsist, partly because he does not know how to move beyond that part with any confidence. — Merkwurdichliebe

It's as easy as looking in to a mirror. — Shamshir

I forgot to mention that most who move beyond never look back, and that is a tragedy of another kind, one of too much knowledge.

The best analogy to solipsism that I can imagine is that of living in a dream world without any reference to the actual world since the world and self are the same for the solipsist.

Thoughts?

I find it impossible to refute. — Frank Apisa

:up:

There are certain individuals who entertain solipsistic reasoning, and it is definitely worth wasting time on them. — Merkwurdichliebe

Because we're banking on them being convinced otherwise by something they initially take to be themselves?

Is solipsism is the case, then what the solipsist "experiences" is all there is. There would be nothing external, or no causes prior to any "experience".

"Mind", "experience", and "knowledge" become incoherent in such a case. The only term that would apply is "reality".

If anything, the solipsist would have direct access to all of reality, and therefore solipsism essentially becomes a form of direct realism, and solipsism defeats itself, as there are no minds at all. Only a reality.

the world and self are the same for the solipsist. — Wallows

Then how does he dream?

Shh, don't wake Him up...

Are there an practical consequences accepting “solipsism” is true vs it is not. I would venture to guess no one would do anything different in this world other than go around say “Solipsism is true”

My refutation of this idea is simple. Conceptual it is no different, practically, than utilizing the concepts in this world minus “solipsism” . But like any concept, maybe some future experience would make me reconsider.

It is impossible to refute that I’m the product of a God made entirely of strawberry blancmange and chocolate drops. Who cares?

If you want to live believing something don’t bother me with it please :)

Richard B
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Are there an practical consequences accepting “solipsism” is true vs it is not. I would venture to guess no one would do anything different in this world other than go around say “Solipsism is true”

My refutation of this idea is simple. Conceptual it is no different, practically, than utilizing the concepts in this world minus “solipsism” . But like any concept, maybe some future experience would make me reconsider. — Richard B

And those who choose to guess they are all that exists...are not doing anything more absurd than peole who guess there is a GOD...or who guess there are no gods.

Nothing wrong with guessing...although in areas like this, I personally do not do it. It matters not what is when dealing with my day to day life.

I like sushi
1k
It is impossible to refute that I’m the product of a God made entirely of strawberry blancmange and chocolate drops. Who cares?

If you want to live believing something don’t bother me with it please :) — I like sushi

Bingo!

I find it hard to refute... — rickyk95

That's because you don't exist.

It is impossible to refute that I’m the product of a God made entirely of strawberry blancmange and chocolate drops. — I like sushi

You're not entirely made of strawberry blancmange and chocolate drops, so you're not their product. :clap:

Because we're banking on them being convinced otherwise by something they initially take to be themselves? — Terrapin Station

More like, we are studying their particular ways.

It cannot be denied that there IS only one of YOUR perspective. It requires a leap of faith to believe that there are other perspectives. OK. But every referential statement requires a similar leap of faith. You cannot prove that this moment actually followed the last moment. Maybe you are a fragmented collection of moments that all contain memories of entire lifetimes. Maybe you only exist for one moment. THIS ONE. Solipsism is one of the least creative of alternative ontologies. No wonder solipsists are so lonely..

Yeah, basically "If solipsism is true, then only I exist or at least I can only know that I exist. But I don't believe this. So either solipsism isn't true or no one believes it, no one believes there's any good reason to entertain it, and so there's no reason to worry about it/waste any time on it." — Terrapin Station

Or the only person there is decided to forget for a while that he/she/it is all there is. And now parts of itself - like figures in a dream - are starting to remind him/her/it of the true ontology. A forgetting as play, or perhaps simply as a facet of this self's process. A neo-hinduism, say.

In theater, it is called the suspension of disbelief.
Your comment is interesting from the point of view of how to chart the path of an individual psyche.
The experience of dreams plays a part.
In terms of proving one set of circumstances to be the case over another, dreams are arbitrary in a way that waking life is not.

In theater, it is called the suspension of disbelief.
Your comment is interesting from the point of view of how to chart the path of an individual psyche.
The experience of dreams plays a part.
In terms of proving one set of circumstances to be the case over another, dreams are arbitrary in a way that waking life is not. — Valentinus

Sure, it would be similar to dreams, but not the same. Similar in the sense that what seems like something other than us is not. More coherent as you point out, yes. I am not trying to say 'life is a dream', just using what purist non-solipsists might agree happens in dreams, as a potential eplanation for a facet of what might be happening if solipsism is the case. I am not a solipsist, but I still think it is less easily written off, so I hopped in with an argument.

In fact, I actually think that solipsism might be partially true. (not epistemological solipsism which is even tricker to counter) IOW perhaps it is both true that there is but a singel consciousness and that there are separate or partially separate consciousnesses. Though this is not someting I can demonstrate.

Irrefutable philosophy, even if it's correct...

:-)

Have a nice dream.

A solipsist walks into a bar and says, "We're all in this together!".

A solipsist walks into a coffee shop and asks, "Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?"

That's all I got. Other than noting it's much easier to take solipsism seriously at 4am in the morning while everyone else is asleep than 4pm.

The recitation of the fact that more than 7 billion people exist.

Do you grow your own food?