Hey Sapientia,

Do we need more welders and less philosophers? — Sapientia

I guess who is 'we' and what is the nature of the need? I don't need another welder or another philosopher. Of course plenty of people believe that unless you are contributing to capitalism by earning and spending more or being part of production then you are not reaching your potential.

But how much money - if any - is required to live a good life? — Sapientia

Research does change somewhat over time, the last I read was that your happiness increases with your income until it reaches a certain threshold (I think it was around $75k in the US) and after that doesn't increase with income. The hypothesis was that money normally plays a negative role on your happiness, once the stress of not having enough disappears then extra money doesn't make too much difference. Some people that are very wealthy have more happiness because of it, not because of spending it but because it contributes to their satisfaction that they have had success.

One more thing, happiness has a very large genetic. To live the good life its a start to have good genes.

I suspect that if we converted or trained all the would-be philosophers to be welders instead, some welders would still do philosophy. Philosophy and welding are not mutually exclusive activities. If there were a program offered gratis for the re-education of philosophers to become welders, I would likely take it up, although I would not do so at the expense of forsaking philosophy in my own time.

If I lived in a society that required a strict division of labour for the continued survival of the society, I would be open, possibly at least in part because of my training as a philosopher, to taking on the necessary roles (e.g., welding) for the sake of the society. If there is a demonstrated need for more welders, and less philosophers, I am adaptable enough to do what is required. The money component might be demonstrative of a supply and demand value for the roles, where greater monetary value is placed on welders because the demand for welders is higher than philosophers.

Substitute "politicians" for "philosophers" and the statement might be true. But we must remember that Mr. Rubio has not merely the looks of a 14 year old, but the mental capacity of one as well.

As a former spot-welder (a very bad one, I must admit) I can attest that we need welders, but not because they might make more money than philosophers.

Rubio is clearly in favour of vocational education, even going so far as favouring it at the expense of academic educution. Is he right to do so? — Sapientia

Rubio's in favour of getting himself into power and he's appealing here, for obvious reasons, to a kind of lowest common denominator anti-intellectualism that represents a significant percentage of the grass roots Republican vote. If he thought that saying philosophers were in league with Satan and should be burnt at the stake would get him votes, that'd be the riff he'd be playing.

But on to the matter at hand...

Do we need more welders and less philosophers? Is the amount of money that a job makes the only thing to consider here? Is it the primary thing to consider? Does and should financial status take precedence over other societal and individual concerns and values when considering the relative importance and prioritisation of jobs? — Sapientia

No, no, no, and no.

Rubio talks about making enough money to live a good life. But how much money - if any - is required to live a good life? — Sapientia

This largely depends on how much money you feel you require to live a good life. If you swallow the story that you need to be rolling in material possessions to be a success then you will never be happy without those possessions, and maybe not even with them. As far as I'm concerned, the benefit of earning money is the freedom to not have to earn more of it.

Cynicism and Stoicism come to mind as rejecting the particular sort of reasoning and values of those such as Rubio, regardless of their popularity — Sapientia

I guess Diogenes didn't watch enough TV...

I guess who is 'we' and what is the nature of the need? I don't need another welder or another philosopher. Of course plenty of people believe that unless you are contributing to capitalism by earning and spending more or being part of production then you are not reaching your potential. — shmik

Hey @shmik.

The "we" is society, and the question is whether or not society would be better off with more welders and less philosophers.

Research does change somewhat over time, the last I read was that your happiness increases with your income until it reaches a certain threshold (I think it was around $75k in the US) and after that doesn't increase with income. The hypothesis was that money normally plays a negative role on your happiness, once the stress of not having enough disappears then extra money doesn't make too much difference. Some people that are very wealthy have more happiness because of it, not because of spending it but because it contributes to their satisfaction that they have had success.

One more thing, happiness has a very large genetic. To live the good life its a start to have good genes. — shmik

So, according to research, the amount of money that one has can, and likely does, up to a point, affect one's happiness. But not necessarily or in every case? And, furthermore, genes have an effect on happiness.

Philosophy and welding are not mutually exclusive activities. — Soylent

Yes, I was going to point that out myself. Although I think that he's exclusively talking about being a philosopher as a career, so in order to do both, one would have to have a career as a part-time welder and a part-time philosopher, rather than taking a career as a welder whilst doing philosophy as a hobby in one's spare time, or vice versa.

Yeh I guess I was questioning that. When people say 'society will be better off' it's hard to know what the hell they're talking about. He doesn't mean that the quality of life in my city will improve with some extra welders.

If you listen to podcasts there was an episode of Science Vs which went through some research on happiness.

Anyway all this talk doesn't mean much, I can't even imagine a context where a politician would make that statement. Is Florida overflowing with philosophers at the moment? I remember reading a while ago about the value of different jobs. Bankers and tax accountants were found to have a destructive net value whilst hospital cleaners created a lot of value. Still you don't hear politicians advocating for us to become janitors.
EDIT: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/dec/14/new-economics-foundation-social-value

First of all, fewer philosophers, not less. It doesn't speak well of Rubio's education that his education didn't prepare him to speak well. Also, I notice he isn't volunteering to give up his political science degree for a chance to retrain as an electrician. I guess this is a "do as I say, not as I do" situation.

Anyway, I do support vocational education. Not everyone needs a traditional college education, and Rubio is correct that we shouldn't stigmatize it. But that's about as far as I can go in agreeing with him. Whether it's Rubio taking aim at philosophy majors or Santorum pointing out that there are fewer job openings calling for philosophers than there are calling for welders, both seem to be missing the fact that a traditional college education gives one more flexibility than a vocational school.

Majoring in philosophy doesn't mean you can only respond to job listings calling for a philosopher. In fact, an education in philosophy typically inculcates skills that can be adapted to a wide variety of professions. This wasn't as valuable 50 years ago when people still expected to stay in the same job (or at least field) for life, but it is far more desirable in the modern, shifting economy where your job description can change overnight even if you haven't changed positions. Having a broadly applicable skill base makes it easier to change course, whether voluntarily or otherwise.

Nor does majoring in philosophy prevent you from majoring in something else as well. I try to get all of my students to double major (either in a language or a specialized field linked to their interests; I also like to recommend computer science and mathematics if their proclivities lean at all in that direction as they are also broadly applicable in the modern world). Statistics also show that philosophy majors have an easier time of getting into medical school than biology majors (indeed, I have a former student who is now a very successful international doctor), and it is well known that philosophy has long been the best way of getting into law school.

Welders are important. That society looks down on those who perform the basic labor needed to keep things together—literally, in this case—is an unfortunate reflection of what we value (see also: teachers). And since they will always be needed, the fact that the vocational training they receive isn't as flexible as a traditional college education isn't terribly worrying. But this doesn't mean we have to denigrate traditional academics to build up vocational education. If no one's a farmer, we all starve. If no one's a doctor, we all die of the plague. And if no one's a philosopher, we all fall for the lines that politicians try to sell us every time their lips move.

Maybe if Rubio had taken a class in critical thinking, he wouldn't spout such nonsense. Welders teach that, right?

Welders make more money than philosophers. We need more welders and less philosophers. — Marco Rubio, Florida Senator and presidential candidate — Sapientia

Well...

...Supermodels make more money than US Presidents. We need more Supermodels and less US Presidents.

Perhaps Rubio needs to get on a diet and hit the gym... really hard!



Mob bosses make more money than policemen. We need more mob bosses and less policemen.

Drug dealers make more money than service industry workers. We need more drug dealers and less service industry workers.

Sorry about the strawmen, but hey, we're talking about a politician, eh?

Meow!

GREG

Welders make more money than philosophers. We need more welders and less philosophers. — Marco Rubio, Florida Senator and presidential candidate

The problem I see here is that, just like most things in capitalistic supply and demand, when there are a lot of welders for the same amount of work they tend to get paid less.

I used to do a lot of welding, industrial, automotive, house and ship repair. A lot of the time, especially on long heavy welds, you start running on auto-pilot after a while. That gives you plenty of time to contemplate the workings of the universe.

As the world moves away from old fashioned, mostly manual labor there is more and more need for specialized training to keep the hi-tech machines running. But a lot of the work requires little thinking after initial or refresher training. Nowadays I see so many people with no problem solving skills and little inclination to even try. It is much easier to call in the next expert in the line.

Only a politician would state that thinkers are not needed by society.

Sounds like something my dad would say... but we can't all be welders, and we can't all be philosophers, they both have their places.

I'm not seeing nearly enough welds in this thread. It is clearly dominated by philosophers. Think how much better it would be, stronger and more solid, if the posts were properly welded instead of being cobbled together with flimsy ideas.

Marco is clearly the best looking male candidate among the Republicans, beating out Carly and Donald both. He will wield his well-welded genetically happy features to good advantage as philosophical advisors no doubt suggest.

We do not need more spot welders. Robots are perfectly capable of spot welding. More technically sophisticated kinds of welders are in demand. They don't need a degree in engineering, but they do need specialized training. Ditto for computer-controled lathe operators and the like. The US makes a lot of high-end products and assembling line methods are not very important in high value manufacturing.

I needed half of $77,000 to be happy, though at my highest paid and unhappiest job, $77,000 wouldn't have helped much. $777,000, or $7,777,000 wouldn't have done the trick. Bad time can't be bought off.

I'm not seeing nearly enough welds in this thread. It is clearly dominated by philosophers. Think how much better it would be, stronger and more solid, if the posts were properly welded instead of being cobbled together with flimsy ideas. — unenlightened

Isn't it the case that there are no two ideas so stupid but some philosopher has tried to weld them together?

No robot could spot weld like I did back in the '70s. They were so astounded they switched me to spray-painting after a time. I suppose you'll say robots do that too. Well, not like I did.

Good point. Here are some readings to get us started:

My friend Mig and her dog Tig are trying to stick with the arc of this conversation.

I think that there exists a class of people who take capitalism as a kind of metaphysical statement about reality. Everything must be judged according to profit, because profit is viewed as some sort of transcendental standard of meaning. Hard work is sacrosanct, but only if it makes money; working hard on, say, raising children isn't really working hard, unless you charge them rent. Hence the juxtaposition of "Welders make more money than philosophers" and a statement about their relative importance. One wonders whether meaning existed before the advent of currency.

Your use of "in league with Satan" and mention of playing a riff warms my steely heavy metal heart. ;)

Think how much better it would be, stronger and more solid, if the posts were properly welded instead of being cobbled together with flimsy ideas. — unenlightened

That would be suct tape and trying wire, not flimsy ideas. The ideas suck because they are not trying.

Welders make more money than philosophers. We need more welders and less philosophers. — Marco Rubio, Florida Senator and presidential candidate

Isn't this a philosophical statement?

All I heard from them say was:
Santorum & Rubio: "My family ran away from Cuba to escape dictatorship and pursue the democratic American dream! Let me tell you, you've never partied like people did in Batitsta's Cuba, circa 1951! Philosopher, schmilosopher. You've never snorted coke out of a Cuban hookers ass like the way my grandfather did, if you know what I mean *wink*. I have a boner thinking about it already. Oh, yeah, I love children."

Queue applause from Donald Trump because he knows what they mean. Sometimes I feel like going around Florida with a megaphone screaming Viva Fidel at the top of my lungs.

...snorted coke out of a Cuban hookers ass... — discoii

Goodness. That doesn't sound like a healthy practice at all! Plus, it exemplifies the objectification and the oppression of third world women by rich North American white men. Tsk, tsk. tsk.

Isn't this a philosophical statement? — darthbarracuda

Any statement that takes 'we' as the subject is a political statement. Otherwise known as 'virtual welding'.

I see you weren't there under the good graces of divine leader Batista, what are you a commie?

Do you prefer to do eclectic ark welding or do you weld with an oxymoron torch?

I used to do a lot of welding, industrial, automotive, house and ship repair. A lot of the time, especially on long heavy welds, you start running on auto-pilot after a while. That gives you plenty of time to contemplate the workings of the universe. — Sir2u

As an aside, I used to work in production and one of the tasks was soldering. If you're doing through-hole soldering then you can do it on autopilot the whole time, it's extremely repetitive. The only upside to the work (besides the money) was that I could listen to my ipod while doing it. I probably listened to over 100 hours of philosophy lectures while soldering. I also managed to get in some law, psychology and almost anything else that would pass the time.

I saw this and I thought its sentiment kinda fits:

An excellent plumber is infinitely more admirable than an incompetent philosopher. The society that scorns excellence in plumbing because plumbing is a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy. Neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water.
~ John Gardner

You can take it to both extremes. You can diss plumbers and welders because you're an arrogant ass or you can diss philosophers because you're an ignorant ass. Politicians aside, I think most of us know where the balance lies.

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I probably listened to over 100 hours of philosophy lectures while soldering. I also managed to get in some law, psychology and almost anything else that would pass the time. — shmik

I do that while riding the bus to work.

Back in the days when I did a lot of welding, we didn't have iphones, and there would probably have been too much noise anyway.

What I used to do was rig up the ghetto blaster and put the speakers on oil drums. At one place I used to work, there were lots of tourists around and they had no appreciation for rock and roll at 5am. >:)