2. It Lets People Show Love for the Culture, But Remain Prejudiced Against Its People, E.G white people owning restaurants that serve non white food"
I'm sure you'll agree with me that this one is too foolish. If a white person opens a Mexican style restaurant, it's stealing? When a Mexican person opens a Mexican style restaurant, are they obligated to share profits with all other Mexicans? — VagabondSpectre
"3. It Makes Things ‘Cool’ for White People – But ‘Too Ethnic’ for People of Color. E.G white people 'get away with' cultural hair-styles that people of color are discriminated against because of"
This is one is too foolish to even address. — VagabondSpectre
With studies showing that negative stereotypes and harmful “Indian” sports mascots are known to play a role in exacerbating racial inequity — Baden
But let's ignore all that because it's all just based on a rubbish concept? And this is how you start your critique. Try harder. — Baden
Sure it sounds foolish when you represent it like that. But she didn't say it was "stealing" for a start and qualified the wider economic context.
E.g.
"In the San Francisco Bay Area, I witness people taking what they like without wanting to associate with where it came from all the time. Here, recent transplants to the area write Yelp reviews in search of “authentic Mexican food” without the “sketchy neighborhoods” – which usually happen to be what they call neighborhoods with higher numbers of people of color. The Yelpers are getting what they want, at least in terms of the neighborhood, as gentrification rapidly pushes people of color out of their homes, and white-owned, foodie-friendly versions of their favorite “ethnic” restaurants open up.
...
So is every non-Mexican who enjoys a good burrito guilty of cultural appropriation? Say it ain’t so! That would include me and nearly everyone I know."
I don't think this is one the stronger points here but it's not looney tunes either. — Baden
Here's the crux of the text:
"For example, standards of professionalism hold back all kinds of people who aren’t white men. As a Black woman, there are many jobs that would bar me if I wore cornrows, dreadlocks, or an afro – some of the most natural ways to keep up my hair.
...
Compare that to fashion magazines’ reception of white teenager Kylie Jenner’s “epic” cornrows or “edgy” dreadlocks.
When Black women have to fight for acceptance with the same styles a young white woman can be admired for, what message does that send to Black women and girls?"
The target of criticism seems to be unequal treatment by institutions not the white teenagers who copy the hairstyles. I don't know the extent that that's a fair reflection of what actually happens in the U.S. but it doesn't strike me as completely implausible either. So, why is it too foolish to even think about? — Baden
Mostly a rubbish concept... — VagabondSpectre
Seems you didn't get what I was actually saying at all, just gave what indeed are the typical remarks made of "the excesses". And I responded to Terrapin Station. Hopefully you'll read my reply thoroughly.The problem with this attitude is you go from criticizing the excessive victim playing of the Sami to creating victims out of those who insulted their culture — Baden
Changes to the asylum procedure continued to affect asylum-seekers negatively. Support services for women who experienced domestic violence remained inadequate. Legislation on legal gender recognition continued to violate the rights of transgender people. Draft legislative changes limiting the right to privacy were proposed.
The human rights situation deteriorated dramatically. Hundreds of thousands of Rohingya fled crimes against humanity in Rakhine State to neighbouring Bangladesh; those who remained continued to live under a system amounting to apartheid. The army committed extensive violations of international humanitarian law. Authorities continued to restrict humanitarian access across the country. Restrictions on freedom of expression remained. There was increased religious intolerance and anti-Muslim sentiment. Impunity persisted for past and ongoing human rights violations.
Well, the Soviet Union did lead the space-race and was close even to getting a man to the moon first, if it wasn't for an enthusiastic German called Werner von Braun. So higher ethical standards of the Soviet Union? :roll:Man-on-the-moon cultures generally develop a higher ethical standard, as well as developing better engineering techniques. — Doug1943
'Found a way to join the modern world' sounds condescending. The cause is simply the low numbers of these groups and the lack of a sovereign nation state. Once when you do have a sovereign state, then other people will treat you as a citizen of that state, even if you have no love for it. It truly changes how you are treated.The real problems of, say, Native Americans and similar groups are located in the fact that many of them have not yet found a way to join the modern world, while retaining such of their customs as are comfortable to them and not in conflict with modern values. — Doug1943
I think that social welfare programs can be used as a veiled counter-insurgency strategy. Or just make booze and drugs cheap and available.Sometimes well-meaning arrangements for them actually help cement them into a backward way of life. — Doug1943
I think so. I think dialogue is mutually beneficial, because it's not a game of winning or losing. Excesses and thoughtlessness basically limit the dialogue. Or the will to have a dialogue. We have those wonderful echo-chambers to go to in this new age of tribalism.We're pushing back at excesses and thoughtlessness from different directions. And the rhetoric is important on both sides I think. — Baden
With respect to the Soviet Union: it actually did have pretty advanced ethical standards -- in some ways superior to those of free (capitalist) countries. But the official standards were in contradiction to actual practice. The Soviets paid lip-service to things like international brotherhood, racial equality, even sexual equality, while in practice being Russian nationalists and male chauvinists. (When I lived there, I heard some hair-raising expressions of opinions about Africans, for example.)Well, the Soviet Union did lead the space-race and was close even to getting a man to the moon first, if it wasn't for an enthusiastic German called Werner von Braun. So higher ethical standards of the Soviet Union?
'Found a way to join the modern world' sounds condescending. The cause is simply the low numbers of these groups and the lack of a sovereign nation state. Once when you do have a sovereign state, then other people will treat you as a citizen of that state, even if you have no love for it. It truly changes how you are treated.
I don't see that you've established anything other than what I conceded at the beginning of the discussion that the idea is often misapplied or applied overstrenuously. But the effect of using your language is dismissive with or without the 'mostly' and echoes the right-wing media's attempts to deride everything that's a concern of minorities by downplaying or mocking it. So, if, as per the first example, American Indian organizations who represent a people who have historically been treated abominably and are now amongst the most deprived in the country say their social problems are partly to do with negative stereotypes being inflicted on them and particularly their youth and that a major remaining stereotype is associated with a huge money-spinning football franchise, I'd be willing to take them seriously on the basis that they're the ones who are the authority on themselves and their problems. Anyway, I think we've reached the end here. It's a conversation I expected from the very beginning would be filled with mockery and contempt and I wanted to give the other side a fair shake. Which I've done I think. — Baden
Hmm, I wonder what systems you find lacking ethical standards. :wink:With respect to the Soviet Union: it actually did have pretty advanced ethical standards -- in some ways superior to those of free (capitalist) countries. - Even Nazi Germany in many respects had modern ethical standards — Doug1943
Isn't that part of his job?the KGB fellow who was the 'minder' for all foreigners in the city we were in was actually, personally, a very decent fellow. — Doug1943
Being a citizen of let's say Afghanistan or Somalia doesn't get much respect. But you are treated as an Afghan and that is a thing. Being an Afghan might not be the thing one actually relates to. The real thing that matters to one might be being a Pashtun, a Tajik, a Hazara or a Nuristani. After all, we did talk about Yugoslavians before, even if we knew that the country was made of many people. And we still talk about the British, even if we know that there are Scots and Welsh on the Island besides the English.I don't know if just being a citizen of a state earns you respect. — Doug1943
Not just that. You really have to have a collective will for independence. Just think about the Scots. They have wealth, history, an own culture, yet they are fine with being British. The English asked them kindly to stay and they stayed. Perfect example how you indeed can create an identity above an original historic identity.And it's hard to become a successful state without having a high degree of education among your population. — Doug1943
All organized human groups have standards of behavior. Primitive tribes who are perfectly happy torturing captives to death have rigid codes of behavior within the tribe. As I see it, modernity involves the slow expansion of who the average person considers 'we'. In some respects it has even begun to extend outside our species.I wonder what systems you find lacking ethical standards — ssu
Of course he was no doubt tasked to be pleasant to foreigners so that they would get a good impression of the Soviet Union ... and more than that. (We were casually asked by him, at the end of our stay there, if we would write reports on what was happening in the West. We advised him to tell his bosses to get a subscription to The Economist.)Isn't that part of his job? — ssu
First, if it's coming from college students who hold very little power or influence, particularly regarding political and social matters, then who cares? Second, in some of these stories, such as the incident at Oberlin and sushi, and Vietnamese banh mi sandwich, the truth is far more banal than the various publications, ranging from The Atlantic, The New York Times, and right-wing publications such as National Review and Breitbart led on. No one was demanding that these food be "banned" from campus. A Vietnamese student was disappointed that a cafeteria dish advertised as a traditional Banh Mi Vietnamese sandwich was made with the wrong type of bread, the wrong type of pork, and the wrong type of other fillings and that it was disrespectful to advertise it as such despite complete lack of authenticity. According to the original article from the Oberlin Review, several students who initially raised complaints wanted to meet and collaborate with the Oberlin dining service and cultural student organizations in order to rework the dishes. The way I think of it for myself, is if my school had 'New York Pastrami Sandwiches' but it was served on potato bread instead of traditional rye bread, I would seek to have it corrected. If someone unfamiliar with your cultural foods were given a very inauthentic version of it, you'd seek to have it corrected, surely. This happens across cultures. — Maw
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