A speaker doesn't require any understanding in their use of words? Where does Wittgenstein demonstrate this? — Luke
Now clearly we accept two different kinds of criteria for this:
on the one hand the picture (of whatever kind) that at some time or
other comes before his mind; on the other, the application which—in
the course of time—he makes of what he imagines. (And can't it be
clearly seen here that it is absolutely inessential for the picture to exist
in his imagination rather than as a drawing or model in front of him;
or again as something that he himself constructs as a model?) — 141
How is it unintelligible given your claim that "you can use a word however you please, and this use provides meaning for that word"? I used those words however I pleased, therefore I must have provided meaning for those words. So what makes it unintelligible? — Luke
If you do not understand what I am doing, then to you what I am doing is unintelligible. Using words is a case of doing something. It is very common that people do not understand meaning (the meaning is unintelligible to them). — Metaphysician Undercover
You claimed that "you can use a word however you please, and this use provides meaning for that word". But is it actually meaningful if nobody understands? — Luke
I used the words "elephant of cheese red line upon whiskey very distance" how I pleased and you don't appear to have understood. But how do you know whether there was any meaning there? — Luke
Once again though, Witty looks to 'test' his account to check if there is, in fact, a two-stage process at work, which he ultimately wants to deny. As he puts it, it looks as though there were first the picture, then its application — StreetlightX
To conjure up a 'picture of a cube' is to already have an application of it in mind. It may not be the only application there is ("it was also possible for me to use it differently"), but this doesn't imply that there are two stages from meaning to application. Rather, the application is always-already inherent to the meaning. — StreetlightX
Suppose I explain various methods of projection to someone, so that he may go on to apply them; let’s ask ourselves in what case we’d say that the method I mean comes before his mind.
Therefore there is meaning here, despite the fact that I did not understand. — Metaphysician Undercover
It is only in normal cases that the use of a word is clearly laid out in advance for us; we know, are in no doubt, what we have to say in this or that case. The more abnormal the case, the more doubtful it becomes what we are to say.
And if things were quite different from what they actually are —– if there were, for instance, no characteristic expression of pain, of fear, of joy; if rule became exception, and exception
rule; or if both became phenomena of roughly equal frequency —– our normal language-games would thereby lose their point. — The procedure of putting a lump of cheese on a balance and fixing the price by the turn of the scale would lose its point if it frequently happened that such lumps suddenly grew or shrank with no obvious cause.
I intentionally used that string of words to be meaningless. I used those words how I pleased but my use did not provide meaning to those words, so your claim is false. — Luke
One cannot escape the reality that intentional acts are meaningful — Metaphysician Undercover
Do you think that the meaning of the words is distinct from the meaning of the act, using the words? — Metaphysician Undercover
A picture (either mental or material) is essentially "lifeless" and does not force or contain its own application or meaning. — Luke
But on the other hand, I also want to say that in all instances of what Witty would call 'everyday use', a picture, by virtue of it always being used in some manner or another (read: applied in some manner or another), is always-already a 'living' one, and that 'lifelessness' is always a derivative phenomenon, which happens when words are taken out of their everyday use. — StreetlightX
The line about there not being a clear-cut diction between a random and systemic mistake had me puzzled, but this reading from Oskari Kuusela helped: “The distinction between not following a rule (making frequent random mistakes as opposed to merely occasional mistakes) and following a variant rule (making a systematic mistakes) is not sharp. Thus, while we may readily say of a pupil who makes constant random mistakes that she is not following a rule, the verdict is less straightforward in the case of a systemic mistake”. — StreetlightX
So, for any given case, you can't tell whether he's 'just skipped it' or he's skipped it due to one of the systematic patterns. — fdrake
The line about there not being a clear-cut diction between a random and systemic mistake had me puzzled, but this reading from Oskari Kuusela helped: “The distinction between not following a rule (making frequent random mistakes as opposed to merely occasional mistakes) and following a variant rule (making a systematic mistakes) is not sharp. Thus, while we may readily say of a pupil who makes constant random mistakes that she is not following a rule, the verdict is less straightforward in the case of a systemic mistake”. — StreetlightX
and the random mistake does not — Metaphysician Undercover
...understanding, misunderstanding and not understanding are distinguished by the difference between reacting correctly to training, making systematic mistakes, and making random mistakes.
Nonsense. You just intervene differently in the case of a clear systematic mistake and a random one.
You can tell someone why, or guess how, they made the mistake if there is a systematic error. You do this by exploiting whatever contextual and behavioural cues you can. — fdrake
Perhaps it is possible to wean him from the systematic mistake (as
from a bad habit). Or perhaps one accepts his way of copying and
tries to teach him ours as an oflfshoot, a variant of his.—And here too
our pupil's capacity to learn may come to an end. — 143
If there isn't a systematic error, you can still correct the mistake by telling them what the answer is, or what they ought to do. — fdrake
W. is drawing our attention to a logical possibility, reminding us of a particular contingency, in order to reorient our way of looking at things. At what things? At the phenomena associated with understanding and meaning. He aims, in particular, at getting us to conceive of understanding quite differently from the way we are tempted to construe the concept: namely, as akin to an ability rather than as a mental state or process. If we compare understanding with abilities and think of manifestations of understanding as exercises of abilities rather than as causal consequences of inner states, we shall look quite differently at the phenomenon of sudden understanding, and also cease to conceive of understanding as a reservoir from which applications of understanding flow.
... that we do have certain elementary abilities (to imitate, react in standard ways, recognize shapes and colours, continue activities in a common pattern, etc.) is a general brute fact of human nature (cf. PI p. 56/48n.), which is crucial for our having the kind of language we have.
Ultimately, he says, he wants the reader to "regard a given case differently"; that is, he wants to change the reader's "way of looking at things". — Luke
He is clearly talking about the pupil who's capacity to learn has come to an end, not the reader. — Metaphysician Undercover
461. ... (I once read somewhere that a geometrical figure, with the words "Look at this", serves as a proof for certain Indian mathematicians. This looking too effects an alteration in one's way of seeing.)
Working in philosophy … is [working] .. On one’s own way of seeing things. (CV 16)
At 144, he asks: "What do I mean when I say “the pupil’s ability to learn may come to an end here”? ...what am I doing with that remark?" — Luke
Well, I should like you to say: "Yes, it's true, you can imagine that too, that might happen too!"—But was I trying to draw someone's attention to the fact that he is capable of imagining that?
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