The concept of objective truth seems incoherent to me. If we say objective truth is something everyone agrees on, it seems that there is nothing everyone agrees on, and not everyone agrees that "there is nothing everyone agrees on", and so on and so forth. — leo
I would agree that there is no such thing as ultimate objectivity - that objectivity is contextual and dependent on underlying factors, not all of which can be spelled out. But that doesn't mean that it is not something to strive for where it counts. — Wayfarer
If we say that objective truth exists out there but we can't access it or not all of us can access it, then how is that an objective truth? If no one can access it then it's an idea, not a thing, and if only some can access it then it is personal, not objective. — leo
No, that doesn't fly. Objectivity is basic, in areas which it is applicable, like journalism, history, jurisprudence, and many more. For instance, you wouldn't read an account of the Holocaust by a Holocaust-denier, as his/her opinions would clearly be tendentious. If your daughter was in a talent quest, you wouldn't expect to be called as a judge. And so on. Yes, they're perfectly mundane examples, but that's part of the point. — Wayfarer
"Objective truth" is a redundancy. What is objective is the truth. It is objective that the Earth is a sphere, not flat, despite what people believed, or still believe. You are even making the objective claim that reality is such a way independent of what others think or believe - that there is no objective truth. If I were to say that there is only objective truth, am I right or wrong in disagreeing with you? What would be the point of disagreeing?The concept of objective truth seems incoherent to me. If we say objective truth is something everyone agrees on, it seems that there is nothing everyone agrees on, and not everyone agrees that "there is nothing everyone agrees on", and so on and so forth.
If we say that objective truth exists out there but we can't access it or not all of us can access it, then how is that an objective truth? If no one can access it then it's an idea, not a thing, and if only some can access it then it is personal, not objective.
However if we say "There is only personal truth", then we are not stating an objective truth, we are stating a personal truth, and that way we can remain coherent. — leo
If we say that objective truth exists out there but we can't access it or not all of us can access it, then how is that an objective truth? If no one can access it then it's an idea, not a thing — leo
If we say objective truth is something everyone agrees on... — leo
Yes, we need objective truth. That is why we have science, engineering, philosophy and common sense. — Frotunes
Objectivity is basic, in areas which it is applicable, like journalism, history, jurisprudence, and many more. For instance, you wouldn't read an account of the Holocaust by a Holocaust-denier, as his/her opinions would clearly be tendentious. If your daughter was in a talent quest, you wouldn't expect to be called as a judge. And so on. Yes, they're perfectly mundane examples, but that's part of the point. — Wayfarer
What is meant by "access"? I suppose in some sense of "access" everyone has access to the objective truth, and in another sense, they don't. — PossibleAaran
You first need to distinguish truth from objectivity; the difference being that the latter is dependent upon linguistic convention. — sime
First re "If no one can access it, it's an idea."
Say that there's a particular rock on a planet a million light years away. It turns out that we're the only technological creatures in the universe, and some catastrophe wipes us out soon. Is that rock on a distant planet just an idea? — Terrapin Station
What is objective is the truth. It is objective that the Earth is a sphere, not flat, despite what people believed, or still believe. — Harry Hindu
If I were to say that there is only objective truth, am I right or wrong in disagreeing with you? — Harry Hindu
Your beliefs are such that they exist independent of what I think or believe about them. — Harry Hindu
If there is no objective truth, then why do so many people on this forum feel the need to quote other philosophers as if those other philosophers hold some truth about others than just the philosopher being quoted? — Harry Hindu
An Objective Truth is true. It cannot be challenged or doubted. It's a lot more than "something everyone agrees on". — Pattern-chaser
If we haven't detected that rock, then some people would say it makes no sense to say this rock exists as anything more than an idea. Some people think that we aren't creatures in a universe, but that the universe is in minds, and in that view there is no sense in which the universe exists without minds. — leo
Cambridge dictionary defines truth as "the real facts about a situation, event, or person". Who gets to determine what the real facts are? If I say what the real facts are and others disagree, who is right? The same dictionary defines objective as "based on real facts". If we say that the real facts are determined through social consensus, then truth is a social consensus. — leo
If it cannot be challenged or doubted then it is something everyone agrees on, no? If it is more than "something everyone agrees on", then what is this "more"? — leo
Say that there's a particular rock on a planet a million light years away. It turns out that we're the only technological creatures in the universe, and some catastrophe wipes us out soon. Is that rock on a distant planet just an idea? — Terrapin Station
Where is objective truth in science, engineering, philosophy, common sense? Scientific laws change through history. Some philosophers of science say that scientific laws aren't even an approximation to truth, they are just working models. You may assume that there is an underlying objective reality, but if you assume it it isn't objective truth, it is an assumption. — leo
I think the interesting question is which of the attributes that make up the category of "rock" can still be identified after said catastrophe. — Echarmion
I agree with you that there is no objective truth and no need for objective truth. I don't agree with your take on what "objective" refers to. I also don't agree that objective (external to mind) things are inaccessible. — Terrapin Station
If no people exist afterwards, there are no categories, there's no one to identify anything, etc. — Terrapin Station
Assuming you do have access to your objective things, if you neither have nor need objective truth, then how do you know you have access to an objective thing? — tim wood
Sometimes it seems like almost everyone here is stuck in an infantile/juvenile preoperational stage of development.
Why would the existence of something like a rock hinge on anything about us? — Terrapin Station
I am asking in what way distinct objects with their specific properties exist outside of human cognition. — Echarmion
And I'm asking why we'd think the existence of anything would hinge on human cognition. My suggestion is that some adults never developed beyond the pre-operational stage. Do you have a better suggestion? — Terrapin Station
What I was hoping to accomplish was you offering why we'd think that the existence of anything hinges on us. (And that should have been pretty obvious.) — Terrapin Station
The argument for that position is implicit in my question. — Echarmion
Once the model implicit in the question is on the table, one would be swimming uphill starting to respond. Once, say the subject object split is assumed, for example. The subject here, controlling the existence of things out there.What I was hoping to accomplish was you offering why we'd think that the existence of anything hinges on us. (And that should have been pretty obvious.) — Terrapin Station
The concept of objective truth seems incoherent to me. If we say objective truth is something everyone agrees on, it seems that there is nothing everyone agrees on, and not everyone agrees that "there is nothing everyone agrees on", and so on and so forth. — leo
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.