Speaking of...

Wow. That woman needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.

Just bear in mind, in 10 or 20 years, when your children or grandchildren asked you (if we’ve survived that long) how it call came to ruin, you can tell them you got to see it happening in real time.

Even before Vladimir Putin met with Donald Trump in Japan on Friday, the Russian president was taking a victory lap. “The liberal idea,” by which he appeared to mean democratic values, has “outlived its purpose,” Putin told the Financial Times.

And when Trump, before the meeting on the sidelines of the G-20 in Osaka, was asked if he’d tell the Russian president not to mess with next year’s election in the United States of America, Trump turned to Putin and smirked: “Don’t meddle in the election,” he said, wagging his finger a little as if he were advising Putin not to eat a piece of iffy sushi. Putin laughed. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo smiled.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-smirked-as-he-surrendered-western-values-to-putin-at-the-g20-in-osaka?ref=home3

Just bear in mind, in 10 or 20 years, when your children or grandchildren asked you (if we’ve survived that long) how it call came to ruin, you can tell them you got to see it happening in real time. — Wayfarer

I wonder what this will look like from the perspective of time and distance - an aberration that was limited and corrected or something that had more widespread and lost lasting consequences.

Really, I'm afraid that the Trump phenomenon is just a symptom of the social disease which has infected us. Check the man's approval ratings. As it appears that very little is being done to diagnose the disease, let alone cure it, we're probably in this degenerative condition for the long term.

I wonder what this will look like from the perspective of time and distance - an aberration that was limited and corrected or something that had more widespread and lost lasting consequences. — Fooloso4

I wonder whether a few decades from now, the post-war Western liberal democratic order will come to be seen as an aberration, or yet another passing phase at best, rather than "the end of history," as many saw it at the end of the last century.

I agree to a point but I would not say that it is just this. Trump after all is in a position of power and capable of doing a great deal of harm.

With regard to society, the question is: How widespread is the infection? Will the patient recover?

I wonder whether a few decades from now, the post-war Western liberal democratic order will come to be seen as an aberration, or yet another passing phase at best, rather than "the end of history," as many saw it at the end of the last century. — SophistiCat

Do you mean the United Nations or the New Deal or something else? What do you think the norm is against which the aberration is measured?

I mean what was referred to in those days as the First World - North America, Western Europe, Japan, Australia. The liberal democratic order in those countries is what was widely considered to be the norm - not only by people who lived in those countries, but far beyond, by those who aspired towards the same lifestyle. Towards the end of the century especially, it came to be seen as the ultimate state of the human civilization (with some room for variations and improvements, to be sure), with no credible and stable alternative.

Do you mean Fukuyama's end of history? While there are many who hold to some notion of progress, they do not buy into the notion of the culmination of political philosophy or ideology. They hold to a more pragmatic, situated evaluation of the alternatives.

It may be that Trump and others will be successful in dismantling the "administrative state" and that government will be limited to the protection of rights specifically enumerated in the Constitution, but many who push in this direction do so because of rather than contrary to some notion of Liberalism.

But some go further and reject the principle of equal rights for all and the protection of those rights. They see equal rights as an aberration.

It is possible that either vision of making America great again will prevail, and in that case it will have widespread and lost lasting consequences.

Added:

With regard to international relations, Trump thinks he is the guy with the biggest dick and can call the shots around the world. While he veers wildly with regard war and diplomacy, when it comes to trade he thinks you will either get behind us and support us or you will be punished. Alliances have an expiration date that occurs whenever he thinks there is a better deal to be had. He seems to have no concept of common interest, only self-interest. And while his rhetoric of self-interest is inclusive of the United States, he has repeatedly demonstrated that it is limited to his own self-interest.

Say this for Donald Trump. He may be transforming American politics into a kleptocratic fascist reality show and turning our once-great country into a global laughingstock, but as least he’s humiliating John Bolton in the process.

...By taking to Fox News to kiss up to Trump, he became national security adviser, a job that no other president would have ever given to a discredited warmonger. His reward is that, after devoting his life to the expansion of American power globally, he’s a hapless party to its contraction. For a person to sell out his putative ideals for such a hollow victory would be like a Greek drama, if the Greeks had written dramas about such small men.

...It’s nightmarish to live in a country where our foreign policy has been reduced to an intramural battle between Fox News reactionaries. And there’s still a danger that Bolton could outmaneuver the isolationists. But right now there is a thin, bitter consolation in knowing that he, like so many others who’ve worked for Trump, sacrificed his principles for power and will likely end up with neither. — Michelle Goldberg

https://nyti.ms/2FMBvlL

Trump greatest legacy will be the destruction of the politically-correct, public relations style of modern Western politics, where most politicians are essentially actors fulfilling roles, good at talking and pretending but not much else.

I don't often venture into conversations about Trump.

However, I felt this article worth sharing, even if I disagree. I don't think that we fail to see what Trump is all about. He wants to be a dictator. The problem is what can be done about it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/05/donald-trump-dictator-not-enough-laugh

'Perhaps it’s the jokes and memes that Donald Trump generates in abundance, the gift that keeps on giving, that blinds us to a chilling fact that we’d rather not face. Put simply, the leader of the world’s most powerful nation is behaving like an authoritarian dictator, one who threatens democracy in his own country and far beyond.

Here’s the latest example of how the comedy can distract. On Thursday Donald Trump marked the Fourth of July by praising the US military, invoking the heroism of an army that defeated the British in the 18th century in part because “it took over the airports”. Lol: behold, the ignoramus president. Cue more chuckles as Trump delivered that speech during a downpour, the Almighty himself apparently deciding to rain on Trump’s parade.'

I agree with Freedland that it is not enough just to laugh at him, but there are benefits to laughing at him. On the one hand it is cathartic, on the other it deeply wounds him. He desperately wants to be taken seriously. He always has. Early on he was shunned by the rich and famous, the "beautiful people". He has spent his life, his father's fortune, and money he borrowed and stole in order to accepted into their exclusive society. Nothing could be worse than to be laughed at for his efforts. But the scorn did not dissuade him, it only made him try all the harder.

Having stumbled into the presidency, he now wants to be a world historical figure. The mocking and ridicule feeds his insecurity, but again he doubles down. The Fourth of July military spectacle did not accomplish what he hoped it would, it did not bring him the kind of admiration he seeks to legitimize himself. It is not enough that his followers adore him, the numbers are too low, no matter how much he might inflate them. We should not take too much comfort in this, however. It will only spur him on.

It is not enough that his followers adore him, the numbers are too low, — Fooloso4

But not too low so that he can't become president dictator at the next election.
With a little help from his friends.

So, what is being done to stop this eventuality ?

The Fourth of July military spectacle did not accomplish what he hoped it would, it did not bring him the kind of admiration he seeks to legitimize himself — Fooloso4

It provided him with powerful images to be used in the re-election campaign.
As did the UK Royals. Shame.

It provided him with powerful images to be used in the re-election campaign. — Amity

Sure, but I do not know how beneficial or harmful it is with those who have not already decided to vote for him. But then again, we do love spectacle.

invoking the heroism of an army that defeated the British in the 18th century in part because “it took over the airports”. Lol: behold, the ignoramus president. — Amity

Reading of a teleprompter is so difficult. How could we assume the President of the United States to be able to clearly read out from a teleprompter a prepared speech. :razz:

Anyway, where ever Trump stumbles on any issues or speeches doesn't matter. What gives energy to Trump supporters is a) the condescending way Trump seems to be attacked in the media (or portrayed to be attacked) and b) their utter hatred of the Democrats. The more progressive the Democrat candidates seem to be and the more they play for the woke Twitter crowd, the better for Trump.

invoking the heroism of an army that defeated the British in the 18th century in part because “it took over the airports”. Lol: behold, the ignoramus president.
— Amity
Reading of a teleprompter is so difficult. How could we assume the President of the United States to be able to clearly read out from a teleprompter a prepared speech. :razz: — ssu

Again. This quote thing. It is not mine. It is from the Freedland interview.
I actually have no idea of what Trump said in his speech. I didn't watch the show.

Anyway, where ever Trump stumbles on any issues or speeches doesn't matter. — ssu

It seems that Trump gets away with anything.
But it still needs to be called out.

I agree about the balance required by opponents. It is a pity there doesn't seem to be an effective political, legal or moral strategy to deflate this ever increasing hysteria and fanaticism, fuelled by hatred.

However, there are careful, intelligent and interested listeners out there who can be reasoned with. Hopefully.

It seems that Trump gets away with anything.
But it still needs to be called out. — Amity

The only thing would be if he would appease the Democrats and that would create perhaps a backbone for opposition of Trump in the GOP. What is really lacking is any kind of opposition to Trump in the Republican party.

Good that Trump isn't as able and cunning as Putin. The thing is that Trump simply is unable to mold the political system into what he would like it to be. (And of course, I doubt that he has really true ideas or agendas what he would like other than to be praised on Fox.)

What is really lacking is any kind of opposition to Trump in the Republican party. — ssu

I don't intend to continue discussing Trump or politics. However, I think that this is an important point you make. What does it take for members to oppose leaders or presidents of their own party.
It takes moral courage and a willingness to be removed from the party and the power it currently enjoys.
There are a few who take a stance.

I begin to see encouraging signs in our own political system ( U.K. ) where all seems chaotic, confusing and self-serving with Brexit being the most divisive issue.
Other parties appear to be joining forces in a cooperative manner to oppose the extreme elements in the Conservative party ( I think roughly the equivalent to your Republican ? ).

Anyway, that's all I got. I am no expert. I watch and listen and vote as best I can.

Reading of a teleprompter is so difficult. How could we assume the President of the United States to be able to clearly read out from a teleprompter a prepared speech. — ssu

In fairness, Trump is capable of reading a teleprompter. In this case, we're told the teleprompter stopped working, so he had to rely on his personal knowledge of history.

Kind of like when a newborn's diapers fail and they have to rely on their personal knowledge of hygiene.

Kind of like when a newborn's diapers fail and they have to rely on their personal knowledge of hygiene. — Baden

:grin:
So funny and clever and so one of my favourite non-gittish, humourfool philosophers of all times.
Seriously :100:

In this case, we're told the teleprompter stopped working, so he had to rely on his personal knowledge of history. — Relativist

:grin:

Well, bloopers are funny. Just like this one from Older Bush admitting he had sex with President Ronald Reagan.

Hi all. I'm a frequent Trump explainer and/or defender, which can certainly appear like, and sometimes actually is, a measure of support. Nobody wonders more than I do where my own line is with the guy.

I've been following this Epstein story. First, Trump needs to fire Alex Acosta first thing in the morning. Acosta arranged Epstein's plea deal a few years ago. It was a corrupt deal to shield a very evil guy. Turns out that when they made the deal they failed to notify the victims as required by law. It's possible that the original case could be reopened. Either way there's going to be a lot of ugly stuff coming out about people in high places. Democrats and Republicans. Bill Clinton and Donald Trump are two names that will come up. Nancy Pelosi's daughter tweeted that "some of our faves" are going to be involved.

There's no evidence that Trump had sexual contact with underage girls. It's not his style. He likes beauty queens, showgirls, glamour girls. Look at his wives. I don't believe he directly did anything.

If he did, I will personally lead the impeachment parade. Whether it was last week or twenty years ago. He will not get a pass for acts committed before he took office. Nobody in the country will be able to defend him.

Short of that, if there is no credible evidence of Trump personally doing anything, he needs to get out in front of this and fire Acosta. If he doesn't the left will go wild. And I will not say a word in Trump's defense on this one.

Very ugly story, Epstein's crimes, convicted and alleged, along with the official corruption that enabled him, are beyond awful. I read an article that included the phrase, "hundreds of victims." Everyone involved needs to go down regardless of party affiliation. Let the chips fall where they may.

Here's a good backgrounder. Trigger warning this will turn your stomach. Both the sex crimes and the official corruption.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/07/fresh-demands-labor-secretary-alex-acostas-resignation-mount-after-jeffrey-epstein

Recollecting a bit, I seem to see more and more of Trump's... humanity?

The fact that he choose to give a history lesson on the fourth of July was initially viewed by myself as some grandiose act of stoking one's ego; but, in fact was a show of confidence to expose one's self with a lack of knowledge on a subject.

Yet, there was no authoritarian parade of tanks, ICBM's painted red, or some such stuff.

Gasp, am I getting used to Trump?

There's no evidence that Trump had sexual contact with underage girls. It's not his style. He likes beauty queens, showgirls, glamour girls. Look at his wives. I don't believe he directly did anything. — fishfry

Apparently he likes the beauty queens who compete in Miss Teen USA. In his own words:

Well, I'll tell you the funniest is that I’ll go backstage before a show, and everyone's getting dressed and ready and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere. And I'm allowed to go in because I'm the owner of the pageant and therefore I'm inspecting it. You know, I'm inspecting, I want to make sure that everything is good.

You know, the dresses. ‘Is everyone okay?’ You know, they're standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’ And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that. But no, I've been very good.

Some of these "incredible looking women" were as young as 14 and none older than 19.

There is a big difference between Trump's trophy wives and females he grabs by the pussy or allegedly rapes.

With regard to Epstein Trump told New York Magazine in 2002:

He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.

One might take this to mean that Epstein likes them on the younger side, but given Trump's behavior at Miss Teen USA, he does too.

None of this is evidence of Trump having sexual contact with underage girls, but then there is the story from 1994 of the 13 year old girl who filed suit against Trump for raping her in Epstein's apartment. From Newsweek, 11/16/17:

In 1994, Trump went to a party with Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire who was a notorious registered sex offender, and raped a 13-year-old girl that night in what was a "savage sexual attack," according to a lawsuit filed in June 2016 by "Jane Doe." The account was corroborated by a witness in the suit, who claimed to have watched as the child performed various sexual acts on Trump and Epstein even after the two were advised she was a minor.

"Immediately following this rape Defendant Trump threatened me that, were I ever to reveal any of the details of Defendant Trump's sexual and physical abuse of me, my family and I would be physically harmed if not killed," Jane Doe wrote in the lawsuit, filed in New York.

The lawsuit was dropped in November 2016, just four days before the election, with Jane Doe's attorneys citing "numerous threats" against her.

There's no evidence that Trump had sexual contact with underage girls. It's not his style. He likes beauty queens, showgirls, glamour girls. Look at his wives. I don't believe he directly did anything.

If he did, I will personally lead the impeachment parade. Whether it was last week or twenty years ago. He will not get a pass for acts committed before he took office. Nobody in the country will be able to defend him. — fishfry

So rape is fine as long as it's not with minors? Or grabbing them by the pussy doesn't count as such?

This was also corroborated by a friend of the 13 year old girl who she told, and also by an associate of Epstein. Will have to look up the details again, but there is evidence that Trump did rape a 13 year old girl.