What happens instead, in a nutshell, is that individuals assign meanings to the observable parts of language--utterances, text marks, symbols, gestures, etc, where the "game" is to do that in a way that makes sense of further linguistic observables in context, as well as other behavior, and where part of that is a game of trying to elicit particular behavior as well as gain approval responses, etc. from others.
— Terrapin Station
This is pretty close to what I would say, except for the notion that meaning is assigned to the parts of language.
The implication of that would be that there is somehow meaning apart from its expression.
And I can't make sense of that. (@creativesoul and thought/belief) — Banno
Paraphrasing... What happens instead, in a nutshell, is that folk use observable parts of language--utterances, text marks, symbols, gestures, etc, in a "game" that makes sense of further linguistic observables in context, as well as other behaviour, and where part of that is a game of trying to elicit particular behavior as well as gain approval responses, etc. from others.
The big difference here is that meaning is found in the actions of the interlocutors, not in private languages.
Meanign is not private, but what we do together when we do things with words. — Banno
Knowing involves some sort of rule following.... — Banno
Are you considering experimenting on lobotomites? Or merely observing them?if we remove thought from the scenario? — Terrapin Station
Question: What is done with information?Well, yes I did, since in that meaning is what is done with information, meaning is not the sort of thing that moves... — Banno
It is only useless to the present goal in your head. If your goal was to understand environmental change then it would be useful. It is useless in this conversation. To say something off-topic is to say something useless to the conversation at hand. The usefulness or uselessness of some information coincides with your changing goals.Per NASA, in the last 35 years, the amount of the earth's surface covered in leaves has increased by about twice the area of Australia. This is due to an increase in atmospheric CO2.
— frank
This is good. Proper analytic stuff.
My posit is that meaning is information doing work. Frank's comeback is that if this were so, then every meaningful utterance ought have a use; but here is a meaningful statement from NASA that is useless... — Banno
How do you make use of information - by moving it? It would help if you took the time to put a little more meat in your posts. You don't provide enough information to chew on.What would information without meaning be? Can you give an example?
— Harry Hindu
Not without making use of that information... — Banno
I thought it too obscure. — Banno
...you have an explanatory vacuum for language use like e.g. a teacher telling a student 'Pearl Harbor was bombed on December 7th, 1941'. If that's not information-passing, we need an alternate characterization. — csalisbury
there is a way of understanding rules that is not given in words, but consists in implementing the rule. PI — Banno
So, not too deflationary for the the concerns of the thread, but rather deflationary in a sense which is precisely the concern of the thread?well, yes. That’s rather the point here. — Banno
I cannot overlook the backdoor smuggling of agency when there is none warranted. All talk about information being within cells, rna, dna, etc. dubiously presupposes meaning where there is no creature/agent capable of drawing correlations between different things. — creativesoul
I cannot overlook the backdoor smuggling of agency when there is none warranted. All talk about information being within cells, rna, dna, etc. dubiously presupposes meaning where there is no creature/agent capable of drawing correlations between different things.
— creativesoul
Actually, agency is warranted. How do you think DNA could replicate without agency? — Metaphysician Undercover
Because the recorder doesn't have a goal to determine what sounds are useful and which aren't. Hammers and screwdrivers are both tools to get work done, just different kinds of work. One is more useful for certain tasks than the other. A tool's usefulness is dependent upon the goal.Any noise would do for a recorder; but not for the student. Why? — Banno
Meaning is found in the relationship between the sounds and the state-of-affairs or visual concepts that they are about - like the state-of-of-affairs that was the attack on Pearl Harbor and like visuals of Japanese torpedo bombers dropping bombs on American naval ships anchored in a harbor.Because the meaning is not found in transferring information, but in the doing. Information transfer is at best incidental. — Banno
Push hard enough on the notion of information and a conflation between causality and meaning takes place — creativesoul
When did Banno assert such a thing? This is something that I, not Banno, have been saying for a long time on these forums - that knowledge is simply a set of rules for interpreting sensory data.All of these ways, and more, provide a concrete footing for Banno's earlier assertion that knowing(how to use and/or do things with language) requires some sort of rule following... — creativesoul
To know something is to have a rule for interpretting some sensory data. — Harry Hindu
It is? How do you know? — Banno
It is really nice to know that people are coming around to my way of seeing things. This is another thing that I have asserted many times on these forums (search it if you don't believe me) - that information and meaning are the same thing and information/meaning is the relationship between cause and effect.What are you saying, that information is meaning with causal power? — Metaphysician Undercover
Push hard enough on the notion of information and a conflation between causality and meaning takes place
— creativesoul
What are you saying...? — Metaphysician Undercover
What's going on here? Is the point only for the student to be able to make the noises 'Pearl Harbour was bombed on December 7th, 1941' on demand?
Then that might be what is done in that little game. And what looked like information passing from one mind to another was a step in a game of recitation. — Banno
So ... knowledge is when words are used to put information to work? — Marchesk
But what actually is learning what date pearl harbor happened on? — csalisbury
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