The idea of any ethical stance hinging on "suffering" isn't at all appealing to me, because I think that "suffering" is both (a) way too vague, and (b) not something that's inherently proscribable ethically. — Terrapin Station
"Gross-overgeneralization," would be the first thing that comes to my mind... — Wallows
You mean to frame anything in terms of "suffering"? — Terrapin Station
Well, not only that; but, also the issue of characterizing the life of an unborn fetus, which one never knows really how would unfold, as unworthy of experience. By what standards, or to what purpose? — Wallows
In my own experience antinatalism is based on the reality of suffering.
Depression,anxiety, schizophrenia, two world wars, the holocaust slavery, cancer. MS etc . Noone has a right to inflict this on anyone or expose them to it and also to shore up gross global inequality. — Andrew4Handel
Antinatalism in my opinion is also an enlightened view on the true nature and connotations of creating life. — Andrew4Handel
OK, so is this depression and anxiety speaking or an unbiased and 'objective' analysis of the current state of affairs in the world? — Wallows
Antinatalism in my opinion is also an enlightened view on the true nature and connotations of creating life.
β Andrew4Handel
What do you mean by that? — Wallows
How is reading about the holocaust and other mass murders and tortures depression and not just an acceptance of harsh brutal facts? — Andrew4Handel
What facts? — Wallows
But... I have realized that antinatalism is, in essence, an extreme form of psychological projection onto an unborn and unknown entity. — Wallows
Yes, these are all terrible things; but, is this really an unbiased analysis of the world? — Wallows
What they fail to consider is two things:
1. The vast, vast majority of people on earth do not perceive themselves as suffering unbearably.
2. Even those who suffer unbearably at some point in their lives, are not necessarily of the opinion that never having been born at all would be a better alternative. — Tzeentch
The fact that sticking my hand in fire will hurt does not create a bias in me. It is a factual piece of information about what reality is like. — Andrew4Handel
All of life? Who's reality? Yours or the unborn fetus? — Wallows
Antinatalism in my opinion is also an enlightened view on the true nature and connotations of creating life. — Andrew4Handel
If you were king of the forest, would you put restrictions on when and if other people could choose to have children? If yes, what restriction — T Clark
There is absolutely no reason to have children
We all have to confront our own death.
In my opinion creating children is malicious. It is like if you were dying but started a fire to kill lot of other people rather than confront your own death and see what happens. Instead you left trails of continuing destruction (the random propagation of your genes) as an act of defiance.
We know for a fact we, you and all your children , grandchildren, and great grand children are going to die. For what conceivable reason?
There is no real immortality in leaving behind partial replicas of your genes to eventual go extinct.
In a sense I feel cowardly for not dying and seeing what life was about.
But the inevitability of death means you just have to sit and wait for the inevitable and creating children is not a pastime that would ameliorate this. — Andrew4Handel
What's the point of even bringing this up if you are only going to have, what, two antinatalists on this forum defend it against the hordes of non-antinatalists? That is a bit of trolling if you ask me. BUT I'll indulge your trolling attempts... — schopenhauer1
No trolling implied. — Wallows
At the very strongest case, there would be an appeal to how the world is structurally suffering for everyone, no matter what contingent circumstances the person experiences. — schopenhauer1
So, I don't know what you're getting at other than trolling for the sake of trolling. — schopenhauer1
See, and that's a form of black-and-white thinking along with overgeneralizing. You prevent the unborn fetus to make up their own mind in regards to the issue, and project a fatalistic, pessimistic, and highly negative outlook on their future life, which manifests in the form of denying the fetus ANY life. That's just wrong, and I'm the first to point it out or make explicit. — Wallows
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