considering all the money hungry pastors out there i can see why some people dismiss all the coincidences this world displays. That being said some believe organized religion came about when populations got concentrated in city states such as ancient sumer/mesopotamia. I believe religiousness and religions predate humans and actually goes back to Apes and chimpanzees and even monkeys.

considering all the money hungry pastors out there i can see why some people dismiss all the coincidences this world displays. That being said some believe organized religion came about when populations got concentrated in city states such as ancient sumer/mesopotamia. I believe religiousness and religions predate humans and actually goes back to Apes and chimpanzees and even monkeys.

The problem with this is that it is effectively saying that religion is a man-made creation, which I believe is possible since it has taken thousands of years to develop to the point where it is now and also the average human will probably live less than 100 years, which isn't nearly enough time to see evolution occur on a large scale. However, my problem is that people such as pastors are getting paid and money is being made in the face of religion even in spite of what it is or what it supposedly is. It would be like if someone was being paid to tell stories and told everyone who heard the stories that they are true, although (obviously) there is no way to know if they are actually true. But the person is getting paid regardless, and in my opinion it is immoral to be paid when there is even the possibility that something might not be authentic, or when it is being presented as unmistakably authentic to those who are funding the payment. If people were not getting paid millions of dollars then it might be different, but a million dollars isn't exactly chump change, especially if it is based on a sham.

i see too many "coincidences" to deny some form of a supernatural or extra natural as just started calling it. I might just be an idiot that isn't good at making good observations and there is in fact no real extra natural entity/creature out there.

We are addicted to power and control. So much of religion is focused upon finding a way to make do as we please. If we just say the right things and do the right things then we will please god and god will give us what we want. we just want that power and control even over god. we do not to be like god, we want to be god.

There was no Allah to speak of, for example, until the advent of the Islamic religion, regardless of whether He existed prior to that ... — Maureen

Islam emerged out of Messianistic Judaism, i.e. Ebionite Christianity.

That is why Hans Joachim Schoeps wrote:

Thus we have a paradox of world-historical proportions, viz., the fact that Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was preserved in Islam and thereby extended some of its basic ideas even to our own day. According to Islamic doctrine, the Ebionite combination of Moses and Jesus found its fulfillment in Muhammad.

In fact, Ebionite Christianity split off from Second-Temple Judaism before even Rabbinic Judaism did. The name "Allah" refers to the God of Second-Temple Judaism, i.e. the God of Moses.

Second-Temple Judaism itself disappeared after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D during the first Jewish-Roman War.

Regardless of whether God(s) of any religion do exist or have always existed, their existence has never been considered substantial for whatever reason until their respective religion was developed. There was no Allah to speak of, for example, until the advent of the Islamic religion, regardless of whether He existed prior to that, and in fact there have been hundreds or thousands of other religious breakthroughs that have come and gone over the years, along with their respective God(s). This alone should put some perspective on the credibility of the Gods of even current major theistic religions, but that is another discussion. The actual purpose of this post is to determine if any given God(s) had a presence prior to thee advent of their respective religions, and if so in what capacity. This is probably difficult if not impossible to say since much of what we now consider to be "God's work" was not and effectively could not have been said to be such until it was thought that God existed, but the main point is that one cannot say with any level of certainty that God even does exist as anything more than a matter of religion without having existed or having been identified prior to the advent of any given religion. Since this was clearly not the case, it can be argued that God(s) came about and had an identity only in light of their respective religion, and the implications of this are anyone's guess, although I would argue that it is a definite sign that God is a pure matter of religion. Of course there is nothing wrong with this, but I'm sure other people will think differently if they have a different belief about God. — Maureen

This doesn't make any sense to me. If any gods exist, their existence didn't hinge on whether we were aware of this.

It's just like Pluto existed long before any animals existed on Earth. It's existence doesn't hinge on us being aware of it.

So if I understand your point correctly, you are questioning what god was up to before the advent of religion? The fact that the religions and “god” showed up together might mean that religion made god and if that is not the case then what sorts of things or what kind of existence if any god had before that?

Religions are basically tribal units.
Religions, in that sense, have always been around and as far as I know, our tribes, for about 75,000 years have has shaman and chiefs and the shaman was seen ar representing god or mostly gods.
I would say a lot of naturalistic religions as that 75,000 year reference is to a serpent worshiping tribe in Africa.
25,000 years back, in Eastern Europe we see mostly female worship and peaceful coexistence. 5,000 years ago we developed our gods of war and have been gifted with almost constant war since.
We need to have female gods come back to save our lousy male asses.
The best man for almost all jobs is a woman.
I am a man and know that truth.
Regards
DL

Regardless of whether God(s) of any religion do exist or have always existed, their existence has never been considered substantial for whatever reason until their respective religion was developed. — Maureen

Perhaps. As nations, I can agree, but not as individuals. It seems that we are born with a mental itch to scratch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IqYHiejTVM

In at least the Jewish era on up, religions did not really believe in a literal god. The intelligentsia were more like what Gnostic Christians developed into and before Christianity stupidly began to read their myths literally.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

my problem is that people such as pastors are getting paid and money is being made in the face of religion even in spite of what it is or what it supposedly is. — Maureen

We are the most week and insecure animal on the planet.

Religions are created to appease our tribal natures, fellowship needs and insecurity.

Money is not much of a consideration and perhaps that is why theist pay to be lied to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

we want to be god. — Arne

As we should, if we are following our genes that push us to be the fittest of our species.

Regards
DL

all ancient religions pointed to The tree of Eternal Life as the true God. It extends a branch into everyone & plants a soul in them by opening a crescent shape flower inside them & bringing out a new soul from within itself. It then leads the soul through the earth to experience good & evil & learn how to be good. That was the foundation of all religions. The Bible on the first pages & the last says only the tree of life can save your soul ultimately, even though you may obey Jesus & Father along the way etc. Hindus say their main God Brahma was born from a flower, & they put most all their deities on flowers because ultimately The tree of Life produces us all from its flowers at soul level. The Islam flag is the ancient symbol of the crescent flower of the tree of life holding the soul; although they changed the orb usually depicted to a star instead. It was sometimes depicted as a star to emphasise its brightness. It comes from within the tree & is held by the crescent flower of the tree inside each human temple.

So to answer your question about what came first 'the religion or the god' I am saying that knowledge of The tree of Life came before all known religions. All the gods work for the tree & came from it. Still there is no proof for its existence except people's experiences. I saw someone's post recently where God gave the person a dream explaining that The tree of Life is in the centre of creation & is responsible for all things. I could understand the dream clearly but no amount of explaining could help the person understand what the dream meant. The person needs to learn by experience & that entails 'meeting God in person & being taken to see The tree of Life. Then one will understand what God & religion is talking about. So the real issue is how to get people to open their minds to God in a world that is shaped by atheism & the dreaded fear of the unknown

We are the most week and insecure animal on the planet. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

How did our selfish gene that drives us to be the fittest in your conception allow this to happen?

It would be like if someone was being paid to tell stories and told everyone who heard the stories that they are true, although (obviously) there is no way to know if they are actually true. But the person is getting paid regardless, and in my opinion it is immoral to be paid when there is even the possibility that something might not be authentic, or when it is being presented as unmistakably authentic to those who are funding the payment. If people were not getting paid millions of dollars then it might be different, but a million dollars isn't exactly chump change, especially if it is based on a sham. — Maureen

Sham shpam!

Maureen, dear, of course we pay people to tell us lies that are convincing. What do you think The News is? Or the history that we learn? It's stories we pay people to tell us and that we like to think are true.

Pastors get paid for telling stories successfully. Some pastors are much better at it than others.

Man invented the gods. It is one of our several remarkable creations, like the lever; double entry bookkeeping; horse shoes; credit cards. The gods, and religion, have come in handy for numerous purposes, so it has paid off. During the dark days of WWII the Soviets made the highly distasteful and most un-soviet of decisions to let the Russian Orthodox Church do its thing on behalf of the war effort. In the Land of Church and State Separation we have prayers before congressional sessions, prayer breakfasts at the White House (which obviously aren't doing any good), and swear in lying Supreme Court justices on a stack of Bibles.

all ancient religions pointed to The tree of Eternal Life as the true God.

I don't think that's true. I can speak for the Ancient Egyptian Religion, which is my personal area of study. There are some elements: tree goddesses (Nut, Hathor), gods of vegetation as symbols of rebirth and virility (Osiris, Min), the young sun being born from a Lotus flower(Creation Myth of Neith). But this coherent, universal story about the tree of life and its flowers? I can't see that anywhere in Egyptian mythology, least of all at its core.

Did God exist before religion?
Interesting question. In my personal belief: Yes. My gods were born when this universe was born, and some of them may be older even. (yes, plural form. I'm a polytheist) They are neither truly eternal nor are they all-powerful, but they are far older than humanity.
However, I think that organized religion is surely a human invention and the images and concepts we have of the gods are partly made by humans.
My explanation goes like this: A god or goddess is a vast, powerful and strange creature. As a human, I am unable to understand the true nature and form of a god - I simply don't have the necessary sense perceptions and brain structure. Thus, I can only communicate with gods and speak about gods by using metaphor. And if a god wants to get in contact with a human (and I believe that they sometimes do that), they need to use concepts and images that the human can understand. Therefore, we have a multitude of images, symbols, names and mythology to describe the gods. All of them are true in the sense that they capture a certain aspect or facet of the divine, and false in the sense that they are never fully accurate or complete.

Is there only One True God(tm) as the source and core of all religions? I don't know. But I don't think so, the universe is far to chaotic and colorful.
But well, I don't claim that my beliefs are universally true, they're simply what makes the most sense to both my heart and my brain.

I don't think that's true. I can speak for the Ancient Egyptian Religion, which is my personal area of study. There are some elements: tree goddesses (Nut, Hathor), gods of vegetation as symbols of rebirth and virility (Osiris, Min), the young sun being born from a Lotus flower(Creation Myth of Neith). But this coherent, universal story about the tree of life and its flowers? I can't see that anywhere in Egyptian mythology, least of all at its core. — WerMaat

this is an ancient piece of art from Egypt or thereabouts. It shows the two angels each person has with them & they are holding branches which are holding soul orbs in their grip, & the person the angels are watching over is seated on top of the same type of flower branch that the soul orbs are seated on the other branches. It all means that the tree produces souls that are the humans' souls & the angels of God work with the tree to protect & guide the souls. A lot of Egyptian & ancient art referring to the tree of life is misinterpreted, but this piece is pretty straight forward & points to the tree of life as the centre of creation from which all souls come, & also that the angels of God work with the tree as it is producing & growing eternal souls. I could show you thousands of ancient art works that point to the tree of life as the primary deity whom all other deities stem from & work for.


And also in this ancient Egyptian art work we can see a human seated on a flower & on the far right there is a soul orb seated on the flower. This is all standard Ancient Egyptian lessons about how peoples souls come from The tree of Life & grow on its flowers that hold them.


And here we see The tree of life symbolised as an ancient goddess with flowers growing out the top of her head. And she is holding an Ankh symbol to represent that the tree holds the human soul as it is growing on her branch She is also pointing an ankh toward a person to symbolise that she puts all souls into people & holds them there. It is all just the knowledge of The tree of Eternal Life. The original religion from Which most all religions branched from

"In what capacity did God exist before religion came about, if at all? How do we know this?"

In my humble opinion, before religions' appearance on Earth, god existed either as a cobbler, or as some sort of dinosaur. Or maybe a trilobite. Amino-acid.

To live with the words of the great Ralph Waldo Emerson (my god),

"The god of a carpenter is a carpenter.
The god of a cannibal is a cannibal.
The god of an atheist is an atheist.
The god of a Christian is a Jew."

Dear Ocean,
I'm very sorry... If you want to impress me with interpretation of ancient Egyptian symbolism your research needs to be a lot more thorough.
Dear other readers... sorry for going off topic

this is an ancient piece of art from Egypt or thereabouts. It shows the two angels each person has with them & they are holding branches which are holding soul orbs in their grip, & the person the angels are watching over is seated on top of the same type of flower

"Or thereabouts" is correct. I'm guessing that this piece is either Roman period, or from a Levantine province, or a fake alltogether. The clothing of your "angels" looks more Assyrian to me than Egyptian. And showing winged figures in this special scene is highly untypical. Also, you would expect the flanking deities to wear different crowns, not both of them with the double crown.
This piece looks like a copy made by someone who didn't fully understand the original scene.
The source of this depiction is a very common theme in Egyptian Art: Sema Tawy, the unification of the two lands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_and_Lower_Egypt
https://images.app.goo.gl/V4KgKmvVBfo5CziM7
Do an image search form "sema tawy" online and you'll find a large number of more examples, but without wings or "soul orbs".
Classically, either the gods Horus and Set or the river god Hapi tie the two heraldic plants of upper and lower Egypt together, the lotus and the papyrus. Look at the images carefully, and you'll see that it's indeed two different types of plants being tied together. In the center, there's not another plant but a hieroglyph, this glyph is 'sma', 'to join, to unite'.
The unification of the two lands is a central symbol in the coronation rites of the pharao, that's why you'll find the pharao's name or even a figure of the pharao on top of the sema glyph.
And yes, we know that this scene is about the unification and not about soul orbs, because the Egyptians were nice enough to put texts around their images, so we can read about the meaning right there at the source.

And also in this ancient Egyptian art work we can see a human seated on a flower & on the far right there is a soul orb seated on the flower.

This second image is from a Late Period temple, I can see that much from the style of the relief. Probably the Hathor temple at Dendera, since the "human" is Ihy, son of Hathor, if I get those inscriptions correctly. He is shown as a royal child (finger to the mouth, naked, carrying flail and scepter and crowned with the double crown). Him sitting on a lotus flower is an association with the sun god being born from that flower.
He is flanked by Nekhbet and Wadjet, patron goddesses of Upper and lower Egypt, sitting on their respective heraldic plants.
So yes, there's a "born from a flower" motive in Egyptian mythology, but that lotus flower rises from Nun, the primordial ocean, not from a tree. And it brings forth the sun god, or the king in the role of the sun god. Not every human.
Your "soul orb" on the far right is probably a sun disk on a lotus flower. See above.

And here we see The tree of life symbolised as an ancient goddess with flowers growing out the top of her head. And she is holding an Ankh symbol to represent that the tree holds the human soul as it is growing on her branch

Here we see the god Hapi, father of the gods. That's what those hieroglyphs above the scene are telling me.
And the Ankh symbol can be found in the hands of all kinds of gods and goddesses, not just gods of trees and vegetation. Ankh is associated with the "breath of life" owned and given by the gods. Not with tree branches. (see Pyramid texts, where Shu, god of air, is equaled with "ankh", the fact that ankh is given "to the nose" and the common phrase "tjaw n Ankh", "wind/breath of life")

Egyptian mythology has a couple of ideas as to how humans were created. Most commonly, they're thought to spring from the tears of the sun god, or they're fashioned on the potter wheel of Khnum.
Soul orbs growing from tree branches are not mentioned in any surviving text that I know of.

How did our selfish gene that drives us to be the fittest in your conception allow this to happen? — Coben

I would not use the word allow.
We are a part of nature.
Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end of all organisms. It can only work with what it has in terms of the DNA available to it.

Regards
DL

It then leads the soul through the earth to experience good & evil & learn how to be good — Ocean777

We instinctively know the good, in fact, we default to doing good as it is the best survival strategy. History shows us that what we are learning to do is mitigate the evil we must do as we compete for resources to survive.
Science and evolution shows we must do evil. It is mostly just not lethal anymore thanks to our l;earning well how to mitigate the harm.

Take away the harm and we go extinct.

Regards
DL

We are the most week and insecure animal on the planet.
— Gnostic Christian Bishop

How did our selfish gene that drives us to be the fittest in your conception allow this to happen? — Coben

I would not use the word allow.
We are a part of nature.
Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end of all organisms. It can only work with what it has in terms of the DNA available to it. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

And with us, our DNA, the selfish gene, made us the most weak and insecure animal on the planet?

As you say this gene that drives us to be the fittest.

As you say this gene that drives us to be the fittest. — Coben

Are you trying to say that our genes are not pushing all of us to be as fit as possible?

Let's have your argument instead of your word games.

Regards
DL

Are you trying to say that our genes are not pushing all of us to be as fit as possible? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

No, I am asking you questions...

According to you we are...
.... the most weak and insecure species.
and...
Our DNA, the selfish gene, drives us to be the fittest.
and...

Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end of all organisms. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

How do these ideas fit together?

Let's have your argument instead of your word games.

Seriously, what are you talking about. I asked questions to get clarification about your ideas. That's pretty fundamental discussion behavior. I am not clear about something. It seems like some of the ideas don't fit together. I am not sure. I ask for clarification. There are no word games at all here.

How do these ideas fit together? — Coben

Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end of all organisms — Gnostic Christian Bishop

.... the most weak and insecure species.
and...
Our DNA, the selfish gene, drives us to be the fittest. — Coben

Those statements give true facts and all three stand on their own merit.

We are the weakest and most insecure and nature does the best it can with what it has to work with in insuring that we work to be the fittest of our species.

If you disagree, tell us why?

Regards
DL

Those statements give true facts and all three stand on their own merit.

We are the weakest and most insecure and nature does the best it can with what it has to work with in insuring that we work to be the fittest of our species.

If you disagree, tell us why? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I don't think we are the weakest species. Not in physical strength, nor in adaptivity. We have driven a number of species extinct. We can beat up many species. If you meant weak emotionally, I don't know how you measure this and it seems we vary widely. I don't know how to compare our insecurity, those of us that are insecure, to that of various prey animals....like, say, rabbits. The slightest sound or movement, they freeze and check or dart for cover. Though, as I mentioned to measure the insecurity of animals and even us, is not an easy thing to do.

The selfish gene you mentioned, according to Dawkins, ends up memorizing traits that lead to it propagating. It is not something that is selfish in the human sense of egotistical. I can assure you that Dawkins is not attributing personality to dna. But given that we are the product of ancestors that survived and then conquered vast swathes of the earth, wiping out other species and continuing to do so, and this has been memorized, so to speak, in DNA, that you yourself say is driving us to be the fittest, how could we possibly be the weakest most insecure species?

This second part, bolded below, makes no sense to me at all....

We are the weakest and most insecure and nature does the best it can with what it has to work with in insuring that we work to be the fittest of our species — gnostic

I don't see nature making sure most people are the fittest of our species. Though I am not sure what you are referring to as nature, since earlier you contrasted nature with our dna. Nature is working with each individual to insure they are the fittest homo sapien? I don't see this. Many seem content with less than being fittest, some content with not being fit at all. And I don't know what process you are referring to where nature is ensuring they are not like this.

That's a start. There are other odd things in there, I think. Though I still find it all rather unclear.

In what capacity did God exist before religion came about, if at all? How do we know this?

well it all comes down to whether you believe your fellow man or not. I've watched countless people join forums to report a miracle or encounter they had with God or angels etc, & without fail 'most' all the forum members attack & insult the new poster & force them into silence. There are millions, if not billions, of people who have witnessed God &/or miracles & they all were insulted & silenced when they joined a forum &/or tried to tell the world what they saw.
So the world is generally evil & wicked & that today predominantly means the webmasters & mods are the main culprits because they have always allowed the bullying & horrendous abuse of anyone who has witnessed a manifestation of God.

We instinctively know the good, in fact, we default to doing good as it is the best survival strategy. History shows us that what we are learning to do is mitigate the evil we must do as we compete for resources to survive. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Well from decades of witnessing the good people of the earth trying to report their encounters with God, only to be met/silenced on 'every site' by evil webmasters & mods & their evil dogs they call 'members' , I can say without any doubt that the world of man is evil & demonic '& has zero ability/capacity to appreciate truth & the reality of God 'as reported by their own fellow man.
So all you have is a world of closed minded devils silencing anyone who has witnessed God, & you need concrete evidence that God exists before you will believe in God.
It's the usual atheist's demand for proof before one will submit oneself to believing in God.

Personally I have always been visited by the angels of God & shown The tree of Life & other worlds etc. God shows me the future thousands of times & it always comes true. And yet I have been mocked & abused by most all Christian websites & christian people when I told them I have met God in person. So religious folk are every bit as closed minded as the atheists & devils etc.

Christ walked the earth before christianity was formed & yet all we have is stories about him that can easily be dismissed. Again we only have the word of our fellow man as proof & that is never enough.

but the main point is that one cannot say with any level of certainty that God even does exist as anything more than a matter of religion — Maureen

well personally God has Always proved His Existence to me by showing me the near future & it always comes true in the following days or hours. Sometimes it is absolutely bizarre stuff which I would never imagine could happen in my life, & yet it happens just as God told me it would.

So I'm well aware that God is watching my path ahead & has eyes where I do not. So all this perpetual proof of God's very real existence denies me the capacity to be an atheist or a skeptic. And that is just the tip of the iceberg of the manifestations & other things God has shown me.

And yet when Christians knock on my door wanting to tell me about God they look at me in horror when I say I have met God. They simply don't believe it is possible to meet God & so they are even more ignorant than atheists. And when I go to any Christian website & tell them I have met the Person (God) they all worship & discuss all day & night 'they instantly mock/insult& ban me.

So all the stories about gods & Christ etc, existing before their religions came about, can either be believed or disbelieved. The choice is yours.

If you are looking for concrete evidence of God then there is none & never will be. God is an infinitely superior life form. He is like the person on the outside of the fish tank or dark cave we are all in. We can only know about God from the words of our fellow man & if we refuse to believe them then that is the end of the proof we have been given. There won't be anymore unless God manifests to you in person. And then you will become one of the people that the world does not believe.
It's like the way airforce pilots are forbidden from reporting ufo's that they see when they are up in the sky. The world of man just cannot comprehend such things & so it is dismissed as an anomaly & nothing more.

So if you are asking for proof that this god or that god existed before their religion did, then all you can receive is the words of man in return & you possibly will dismiss that as lies.

I think the initial concept of God was created for language as opposed to a real being. I think that forces in the universe were personified because we are better equipped to pass on knowledge in narrative form as opposed to a series of facts. I think the current notion of a God is a misunderstanding of teachings of ancient civilizations such as the Egyptians who believed in a spirit world which they explained with characters and stories, which foreigners mistook these characters as real entities.

well personally God has Always proved His Existence to me — Ocean777

YOU have always existed? I did suspect you are a relation to Jesus the Christ.

We can only know about God from the words of our fellow man & if we refuse to believe them then that is the end of the proof we have been given. — Ocean777

I think you need to hone your own personal definition of what comprises a proof, and get it more in line with the way the rest of the gang here uses that word.