On self control

khaled

First off I'm not sure this is even philosophy or psychology or what it is exactly, it's just my musing. I'm a scientific type of guy and don't understand much about the humanities and their fuzzy concepts. I was also bothered by a problem I knew from a very young age which is lack of self control. We all lack self control in some aspects and I am acutely aware of it as I am a gamer. In a video game you have complete control over your character, in life you don't and I often dry to draw similarities between the two. It always bothered me why I sometimes fail to do what I plan to do when in games it is just so easy. What exactly are the obstacles here.

So I came up with a framework of why we do what we do or fail to do it. The basic concept I have is "quota" which you can think of as "motivation" or "energy" and other fuzzy concepts people throw around. The reason I called it that is that I noticed (at least in my personal life) that it is very hard to do some tasks unless a "quota" of other tasks has been completed. Eg: it's harder to concentrate on work without any breaks, or a bad night sleep.

The general rule goes: you gain quota when you do things you genuinely want to do and spend it to do things you don't. By genuinely want to do, I mean you would do the activity without provocation. For me that's playing video games. If I have nothing to do, I play videogames and that gains me quota to do other things I don't enjoy too much

Every action has a quota cost and a quota return. A net positive action will leave you MORE motivated and energetic (aka give you more quota) at the end to do other things. A net negative action will do the opposite. Ex: playing video games has a negligable quota cost (turning on the PC) and a good quota return (it's not forced)

The quota cost and return of an action are also affected by expectations. Success rewards more quota than failure. Beating a game gives more quota than quitting on a losing streak. In fact the losing streak might actually result in a loss of quota. So you spend quota to initiate an action but that doesn't guarantee you get any back.

The more you do an action the less the quota costs and returns become. A video game is not as fun or appealing the 100th time through as the first time. A workout or study session is not as hard on the 100th time as on the first time. Aka the longer you do something the easier and less rewarding it becomes.

Finally, the last concept is "investment". Investment is sort of like a modifier you apply that combines quota cost and return. It works like this: if you are highly invested in an action, then the quota cost decreases and the quota returns increase however they don't change in the same proportion. The more invested you are in an action the more the quota cost of failure increases while the quota gain of success doesn't change much.

Ex: finals exams are very high investment activities. It is very easy to get out of bed in the morning of a final exam if you've invested into it (because you're not about to miss your finals just because you don't feel like going today). The quota return for passing with stellar marks is also way greater than in assignments you haven't invested much into. On the other hand, the quota loss from failure is also much greater and it is amplified beyond the gain of passing. It feels worse to fail a final than it feels good to pass it

The final interaction worth pointing out is that investment tends to go up with time. But this is not always the case. Time dilutes both returns and costs while investment intensifies both but more so the costs. So they are competing factors. Ex: learning that you gave diabetes and starting on a new diet is very high investment with very low time which means it will be rewarding to succeed and very punishing to fail. If one follows this diet for a long time the quota changes of success and failure and dumbed down a lot so it's not as rewarding to succeed and not a punishing to fail (psychologically). Which is why it's easy to "fall off the bandwagon after a while. On the other hand, just starting on a diet normally it relatively low investment and low time spent. Thus it will not be as costly to fail but neither will it be as rewarding to succeed. It will also require a lot of initial quota to even start (since both time and investment lower cost and those are both low at the start). Continuing this habit for a long time though (by investment with quota gotten elsewhere) will increase investment and time. This means that it will not be as difficult to start the activity. Whether or not it becomes rewarding or tedious to succeed (and also punishing or mild to fail) depends on which of the two factors wins out (time vs investment). High investment increases quota returns, good or bad but high time reduced them. So it is case by case.

I've been using this framework for some time now and have had decent success with it. It helps me get a jist of what I can and can't expect myself to actually do. Any thoughts on this or things I missed that would improve this framework? Or is it just trash and there are better ones. If so I'd like to know them

Possibility

↪khaled

This is an interesting way of looking at self control.

I tend to look at control as a perception: your capacity to do anything is dependent on your level of awareness, connection and collaboration in relation to whatever you seek to control. So self control depends on how aware you are of the many systems that connect and collaborate to enable you to get out of bed in the morning, achieve in your exam, play video games, etc - and what these systems require in order for you to continue to achieve what you want to achieve.

So I imagine you feel a lack of control because you are dependent on a lot of systems and relationships that enable you to play your video games and study that you are perhaps not fully aware of. When these systems make demands on your time or effort that you didn’t account for, or cease to work for you, it feels like you have no control. But the more you are aware of these systems that support you, and the more you connect and collaborate with them - recognising what they need to continue to support you - the more in control I imagine you would feel.

So perhaps next time you have nothing to do, take a little of that time to get to know, connect with and support those systems and relationships that give you so much time and energy to play your video games. Just a thought.

god must be atheist

I like this quota system. Can I quota you on this?

Quota is the currency of self-control. With some activities, you collect and stockpile quota, with other activities, you spend quota; you run out of self-control when you don't have enough quota to finish activities that require the spending of quota.

Pretty straight-forward and useful.

khaled

↪god must be atheist

yes.

khaled

↪Possibility

I think my framework is just a more general form of that. You satisfy some systems at the expense of others. So the part of you making demands you play video games can only be frustrated for so long. What determines how long it can be held back is how much quota you have. You goal should be to make sure you are continuously gaining quota not spending it. It is sort of like income. You can't just "not spend" so you have to make sure you keep making money

WerMaat

I like your concept. It's a simplification, but a useful model nonetheless.

However, I believe that you're underestimating the time factor. You write:

Time dilutes both returns and costs — khaled

I think you need to consider that there's more than just a dilution. You cannot actually stockpile "quota" that much at all, and longer periods of time will not help.
If you spend 2 hours playing or relaxing, you feel refreshed and ready to work - OK.
But imagine you spend 2 consecutive days or even 2 consecutive weeks playing and relaxing - does this result in you being super-extra motivated and able to now work for 2 weeks with barely a break?
Anyone coming back to work after a vacation will probably tell you otherwise.

From a gaming point of view: your quota is mana points, and your mana pool cannot exceed a certain size. You can replenish it by relaxing, and perhaps speed regeneration by engaging in a positive activity. But as soon as you're on max it will not keep growing and further time spent quota farming is ineffective.

Does that make sense?

Possibility

I think my framework is just a more general form of that. You satisfy some systems at the expense of others. — khaled

I actually think your framework is a very narrowly-focused, simplified form.

So the part of you making demands you play video games can only be frustrated for so long. What determines how long it can be held back is how much quota you have. — khaled

There is a part of you making demands you play video games? You might want to explore exactly which part of you is making these demands, and why.

The systems I was talking about are:

Your bodily systems: how nutrition, kilojoules and sleep affect your health, energy and concentration levels.

Your financial support system: are you earning your own way, or are others supplementing your income or providing support that would otherwise cost you money? If so, how are you assisting them so that they can/will continue to do this?

It’s not a matter of ignoring demands or frustrating their efforts until their demands are overwhelming - it’s about understanding and working with or around them, so that they no longer make demands that destroy your sense of control.

You goal should be to make sure you are continuously gaining quota not spending it. It is sort of like income. You can't just "not spend" so you have to make sure you keep making money — khaled

If this is how you see income, then it’s no wonder you struggle with a lack of self control. You have given away all your ‘control’ and don’t even realise it. You appear to be a slave to systems, lacking awareness of how they pull your strings to make you dance, of how you simply allow them to dictate what you ‘have to do’ because you don’t seem to know how to take responsibility for your actions.

Video games create a world of rights with no responsibilities, and much of the ‘real’ world perpetuates this illusion, portraying this sense of privilege as something to aspire to. Don’t fall for it - you’ll only be disappointed. Achievement requires genuine connection, awareness and collaboration.

khaled

↪Possibility

I mean... I wasn't really looking for life advice but thanks I guess. First off, I don't even work to see income any way, I'm a student. And video games aren't really a problem for me, I was just using them as an example.

It’s not a matter of ignoring demands or frustrating their efforts until their demands are overwhelming - it’s about understanding and working with or around them, so that they no longer make demands that destroy your sense of control. — Possibility

This seems contradictory to me. "It's not about ignoring demand or frustrating their efforts" "It's about working with or around them so that they don't destroy your sense of control". Isn't that just following the demands in different ways? Do you mean that self control is just finding better ways to suit these demands?

If this is how you see income, then it’s no wonder you struggle with a lack of self control. You have given away all your ‘control’ and don’t even realise it. You appear to be a slave to systems, lacking awareness of how they pull your strings to make you dance, of how you simply allow them to dictate what you ‘have to do’ because you don’t seem to know how to take responsibility for your actions. — Possibility

This is awefully presumptuous but ok. I never said I lack self control, I'm just trying to understand how self control WORKS. Why can some people control their urges while others can't. As I said, I'm a scientific kind of guy. I want something you can put a NUMBER on. Quota was my best attempt, literally just currency. And we sure know how to put numbers on currency. And I really don't get what "taking responsibility for my actions" has to do with anything

Other than that, I believe a person is literally JUST his systems. Nothing more nothing less. That's the philosophy bit of this discussion. Do you think there is more to a person than the systems that make demand on their time?

I actually think your framework is a very narrowly-focused, simplified form. — Possibility

Yea probably. I'm just a single pea brain. If you have an alternative please tell me.

Possibility

This seems contradictory to me. "It's not about ignoring demand or frustrating their efforts" "It's about working with or around them so that they don't destroy your sense of control". Isn't that just following the demands in different ways? Do you mean that self control is just finding better ways to suit these demands? — khaled

Not contradictory, it’s just a different perspective. Instead of looking at it as demands made on your time, see it as a relationship that you negotiate. It helps to be aware of what you’re dealing with, how to interact, what the system needs (not necessarily what it demands) and what results if this doesn’t happen, among other things.

In my view, control is essentially an illusion - everything we do is a result of awareness, connection and collaboration.

This is awefully presumptuous but ok. I never said I lack self control, I'm just trying to understand how self control WORKS. Why can some people control their urges while others can't. — khaled

My apologies - I read your OP wrong, then.

I really don't get what "taking responsibility for my actions" has to do with anything — khaled

That’s kind of what ‘self control’ is at base: taking responsibility for your urges, for the systems that make demands on your time, and making an informed decision whether to meet those demands, bear the consequences of refusing those demands, or negotiate an alternative relationship.

I believe a person is literally JUST his systems. Nothing more nothing less. That's the philosophy bit of this discussion. Do you think there is more to a person than the systems that make demand on their time? — khaled

I think a person is the sum of their relationships: both those that appear to make demands on their time, and those through which they have greater potential to achieve. It’s a matter of perspective.

Yea probably. I'm just a single pea brain. If you have an alternative please tell me. — khaled

That’s a strange interpretation. You said your framework was a more general version of mine. I said I thought it was a simplified, more narrowly-focused version. This was not a judgement on you, or the size of your brain.

Reducing the concept of self control to a measurement based on time vs investment fails to take into account the role of awareness, connection and collaboration in relation to motivation and energy levels over time. Not everything that requires self control can be reduced to time vs investment. Take sex, for instance.

khaled

↪Possibility

Not contradictory, it’s just a different perspective. Instead of looking at it as demands made on your time, see it as a relationship that you negotiate — Possibility

That's an interesting way of looking at. I always thought it was more like "appease" than "negotiate"

In my view, control is essentially an illusion - everything we do is a result of awareness, connection and collaboration. — Possibility

I don't understand what any of those 3 means could you please elaborate? Connection to what or who? Awareness of what? Collaboration with what? Are you referring to the systems you were mentioning?

That’s kind of what ‘self control’ is at base: taking responsibility for your urges, for the systems that make demands on your time, and making an informed decision whether to meet those demands, bear the consequences of refusing those demands, or negotiate an alternative relationship. — Possibility

I thought you meant responsibility as in, responsibility for the results on others. This clarifies it.

That’s a strange interpretation. You said your framework was a more general version of mine. I said I thought it was a simplified, more narrowly-focused version. This was not a judgement on you, or the size of your brain.

Reducing the concept of self control to a measurement based on time vs investment fails to take into account the role of awareness, connection and collaboration in relation to motivation and energy levels over time. Not everything that requires self control can be reduced to time vs investment. Take sex, for instance. — Possibility

First off, I would say simplified and general are the same thing so I'm not sure what you mean there. Secondly, as I said, I am looking if there is some framework with concepts you can put a number on that can account for what self control is and how to maximize it. As for sex, that would be a very high investment, very low time activity. High investment means very good rewards for success and VERY high punishment for failure and low time means both of those effects are amplified further. This seems to match what sex is like for most people.

Possibility

I always thought it was more like "appease" than "negotiate" — khaled

‘Appease’ suggests a lack of agency, as if you don’t have any choice. This is what I meant by being a slave to systems. If you’re unaware of what would happen if you don’t meet these demands, then how do you know it’s not better for you in the long run? Do you trust that the system knows what’s best for you, or only what’s best for the system?

I don't understand what any of those 3 means could you please elaborate? Connection to what or who? Awareness of what? Collaboration with what? Are you referring to the systems you were mentioning? — khaled

Let’s look at sex as an example: a relationship between two self-conscious entities, each also negotiating relationships with their respective sensory and limbic systems, as well as family, cultural and other social and ideological systems. If it’s a matter of ‘appeasing’ a system, then which system is calling the shots? Which one is your partner appeasing, and how would you know? Is an interpretation of ‘failure’ based on the demands of your system, or your partner’s?

So when you’re looking at self control in relation to sex, it’s a little more complicated than a high investment, low time activity. Responding to whichever system demands are strongest or most urgent is not self control, despite your calculation of time vs investment.

For sex to be mutually rewarding on all levels, it involves a negotiation of relationships, not a political struggle. It requires you to be aware of all interested parties, to connect with each system/relationship (not dismiss or oppress), and collaborate towards mutual success. This is what ‘self control’ looks like.

First off, I would say simplified and general are the same thing so I'm not sure what you mean there. Secondly, as I said, I am looking if there is some framework with concepts you can put a number on that can account for what self control is and how to maximize it. — khaled

First off, ‘general’ also means true for all or most cases, which is not the same as simplified, hence my clarification. Secondly, at some point you’re going to have to recognise that value isn’t just about quantification. Maximising self control involves navigating the five (possibly six) dimensional landscape of human experience. I admire your initial attempt, but how good is your maths?

On self control

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