I have a whole poetic list of such bad examples if you want to see it. — PoeticUniverse
Well, presumably god has cosmic responsibilities that necessitate actions he cannot otherwise morally justify. Thats what I suspect a religious person might say. An appeal to some greater good, like sacrificing his son (immoral) to save the souls of all mankind. (Greater good). — DingoJones
Sure, those seem like valid criticisms of incredulity. Certainly it doesnt seem like god is making much sense or being very moral but the believer will just pass the buck over to gods mysterious ways. Seems evil to us but we are not god and it all serves some greater good etc etc
Either that, or will get the metaphor/“bibles not literal” dodge. — DingoJones
When the Lord first spoke to Hosea, the Lord told him, “Marry a prostitute and have children with that prostitute. The people in this land have acted like prostitutes and abandoned the Lord.” 3 So Hosea married Gomer, daughter of Diblaim. She became pregnant and had a son. — God
3 Then the Lord told me, “Love your wife again, even though she is loved by others and has committed adultery. Love her as I, the Lord, love the Israelites, even though they have turned to other gods and love to eat raisin cakes.” — God
Just off hand, I can't tell you why God doesn't lead by example. I can tell you though that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are descended from Abraham, not Moses. It was to Abraham that God made the promise of descendants more numerous than the sands of the sea. Something like that. — Bitter Crank
God did tell one of his prophets, Hosea, to marry a whore.... So what happened? Hosea's wife behaved badly, like a whore -- pretty much what was expected. Why did God want Hosea to marry a whore? So Hosea could understand what it was like being the God of Israel. — Bitter Crank
Isn't God supposed to resolve issues with the least violence, the most intelligence and compassion? — BrianW
I'm not an Abrahamist but I think there are parallels in behavior we accept in humans with extra authority and power. Children are often told not to do things that parents can decide to do in certain circumstances where they deem it necessary. Ordering the children around, using force in extreme situations with the children - forcing them to use a seatbelt as a mild example, pulling one forcefully back from the street. Police can use violence, courts can do things to people that others cannot - this would be precisely not vigillante violence, vengeance is mine says the court system (lol) and all that. Military leaders making horrible choices, bombing targets with known or heck intended civilian casualties (WW2) had a lot of that. Individual citizens deciding to bomb the mafia would do prison time.I'm just wondering why God (a being of supposedly supreme intelligence, wisdom and love) isn't held to a greater standard than humans. Isn't God supposed to resolve issues with the least violence, the most intelligence and compassion? — BrianW
You may be confusing peace with pacifism.
Pacifism does not lead to peace. Pacifism only leads to contempt. Peace can only exist in mutual respect, and all respect is ultimately always based on the fear for reprisals.
It often takes a hell of a lot of reprisals to finally bring peace. — alcontali
I'm not an Abrahamist but I think there are parallels in behavior we accept in humans with extra authority and power. Children are often told not to do things that parents can decide to do in certain circumstances where they deem it necessary. — Coben
Ordering the children around, using force in extreme situations with the children - forcing them to use a seatbelt as a mild example, pulling one forcefully back from the street. Police can use violence, courts can do things to people that others cannot - this would be precisely not vigillante violence, vengeance is mine says the court system (lol) and all that. Military leaders making horrible choices, bombing targets with known or heck intended civilian casualties (WW2) had a lot of that. Individual citizens deciding to bomb the mafia would do prison time. — Coben
Not that any of this need be morally simple, but most of us allow that people with extra skills, positions of power, special knowledge get to do stuff that would be 'sinful' if kids or regular citizens or the unskilled did it. — Coben
That's the point I'm making - that, the 'do as I say' teaching is inadequate when the teachers don't do as they say. — BrianW
None of them claim to be perfect or above censure. Unless we accept that the "abrahamic/mosaic" God is just another being liable to faults just like all the other beings we have encountered. — BrianW
I disagree that we 'know it is wrong'. Unless we are complete pacifists we allow people to knowingly kill even innocents in wartime. We allow police powers we do not allow other citizens, powers most do nto consider wrong at least in many types of instances. We allow parents to do things we do not allow kids to do, both in relation to kids and in relation to things, other adults, and more.We allow but we still know it is wrong and we still define the limits of such allowances. — BrianW
And again, why are we holding God to the same standards we have for humans? Isn't God supposed to be above that? What happened to being perfect, all-powerful, faultless, etc, etc? — BrianW
Right. But that doesn't really affect my argument. My argument is that we accept that experts/leaders/adults make decisions and perform acts that non-experts/non-leaders/children are not allowed to make, and so the idea that there is a God who does not act like he tells us to act, cannot be considered immoral or hypocritical per se. — Coben
If there is a God who has incredibly more knowledge than us, and presumably perception also, the fact that such a God does certain things that seem immoral to us cannot be ruled out as immoral or hypocritical, since we, if this is the case with God, do not know what God knows. And sure, we limit those powers - though in wartime those limits are far out there: Hiroshima, Dresden and then a lot of smaller acts where innocent people were killed. — Coben
I haven't said anything about holding God to a different standard. If it is true that God knows vastly more than us, God may be doing perfectly. — Coben
So what happened? Hosea's wife behaved badly, like a whore -- pretty much what was expected. Why did God want Hosea to marry a whore? So Hosea could understand what it was like being the God of Israel. — Bitter Crank
"hint, hint, we made this stuff up." — ZhouBoTong
whiny Israelites — ZhouBoTong
So there's nothing inconsistent with a supposedly perfect God acting in ways which we know to be less than perfect... ? — BrianW
Like I said, to some extent we do allow but we also set limits, for example, since WW2 the succeeding wars have been greatly monitored to avoid such occurrences — BrianW
I don't think it should be the same for a supposedly perfect God. — BrianW
So, God may be doing perfectly what is questionable or outright wrong for us to do? Hmm, No. Not buying that. — BrianW
I'm just wondering why God (a being of supposedly supreme intelligence, wisdom and love) isn't held to a greater standard than humans — BrianW
The whole point of my argument is we may not be in a postion to know. Just as a child might not know. Just as a civilian might not know what was necessary. Just as a non-expert might not know. — Coben
Sigh. I mean, sure. I am not arguing that parents are infallible. Mine weren't. But the truth is you, when you were younger, had to listen to your parents or you would probably be dead. You would have wandered out in the road. And you probably did not understand why they were right. If there is a deity with knowledge vastly greater than ours, then we may be wrong about the best ways to run a universe. I am not telling you what to do, or how to relate to authroity figures. I am on the rebellious side myself. My point is that if there is a deity, vastly more knowledgeable than us, than just like toddlers or even older children, we may mistakenly think that this 'parent' is wrong, because we lack the knowledge.My personal experience is different because I used to call out my parents on their nonsense, for example, I asked my dad how he thought he could impart to me the notion that smoking was bad when I knew for certain that he began smoking while in high school. In the end, he fessed up that such lessons were an attempt to have one's kids do better than the parents but were not necessarily definitive lessons on morality. — BrianW
I don't think so. I think I was quite convinced my parents were wrong about anything from bedtime to the importance of certain kinds of interpersonal behavior. The truth is as a middle aged person I am still realizing nuances of things where I am just now realizing they were right. There is absolutely no way a kid can understand that eating more sugar, wandering out in the street, putting her hands through the cage at the zoo. playing with fire in certain ways are just plain dangerous. Left to their own devices they will do all sorts of things over and over until statistics catch up with them. Or we could leave them alone. We're not deer, who know a lot of the rules when they pop out of the womb and start walking, near mom.And, for the record, children do know. It's just that their knowledge processes (conscious and sub/un-conscious minds) have yet a ways to go in terms of integration, but they always suspect or intuit certain hints about their parent's actions. — BrianW
Sure. I do this too. Now you are saying what you do. That you want to analyze and judge. Fine.I'm not saying there isn't or couldn't be another side to this coin but, any reasonable being should hold everything to proper analysis and critique. Not only do we question our parents but we also often act out against them when they try to play two-face. From my evaluation of religions, morality (especially from those of the Abrahamic/Mosaic religions), I find a near perfect analogy with respect to its failings as I observe with human parenting. Coincidence... ? I think not. — BrianW
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Whiny Israelites, whinging Romans, bitching Greeks, sniveling Christians, peculiar pagans -- to hell with the lot of them. — Bitter Crank
Hint, hint: they did -- all of it. Presumably. Unless YHWH was actually dictating the text. — Bitter Crank
Of course, they do this. In school I was not allowed to defend myself physically. The teachers, at least many of them would if they were attacked on the street. A fight between kids, both kids got suspended, period. Parents can give orders which children must follow. They on the other hand need not follow the orders of children. Police can decide to put me in the back of a car in handcuffs and cart me off overnight. I cannot decide to do that to them. They can even make and error but not be punished if they followed their rules. I cannot do it to them even in many situations where it would not be an error. There is no situation where I can kill a lot of people including innocent ones. Governments and military leaders can do this. I am mentioning examples where I think most people see this and most people consider this to often be correct, though sometimes it can be wrong.Can anyone impart discipline which they do not adhere to? The answer, from human experience, has been a resounding NO. — BrianW
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