If you intentionally/knowingly gave them HIV and we can causally show that HIV made you acquire the other disease (which would be very difficult to show causally). — Terrapin Station
Also for the concert hall example, you CHOSE to go to the concert hall. If the guy forced you into the concert hall and it blew up it IS his fault — khaled
As within 15 minutes you completely forget that someone normally capable of granting or withholding consent is REQUIRED for consent to be an issue. — Terrapin Station
Having children enables certain kinds of pain but doesn't cause them directly. — khaled
I... Don't understand what you're saying at all — khaled
Where did I say anything that suggested I'd have a moral problem with "enabling" anything ? Some capable of granting or withholding consent is required, and even then, we need to be able to show a causal chain, which I said would be very difficult to do in the HIV example. — Terrapin Station
Holy moley. Okay, when I get back. I'm late for what i need to do. — Terrapin Station
No because planning your kid's inheritance is IMPROVING someone's state of affairs and you don't have to do it. First off, I am lucky my parent's investment in my money panned out. I have a pretty good life. So assuming I forgive them the initial discretion of having me in the first place, no I would not say this situation is the same as having children. Why? Because my parents do not HAVE to give me inheritance. That is a way to IMPROVE my life status. They don't HAVE to give me inheritance in the same way you don't HAVE to donate to charity. So if they suddenly become unable I wouldn't hold it against them just like if I was a beggar and someone didn't give me money I wouldn't automatically hate them.
What happened here was: A potentially better state of affairs was denied from me.
What happens in birth is: A definitely worse state of affairs was risked for me without my consent.
They are not the same situation — khaled
It simply tells you not to go on and invest SOMEONE ELSE'S money in the same business without their permission. You yourself called it audacious. So don't repeat it. — khaled
I... Don't understand what you're saying at all. — khaled
So giving someone HIV and them dying of a seperate disease is completely acceptable for you? — khaled
The same actual person will also experience good--quite possibly much more good than suffering. — Bitter Crank
that apparently balances out the cosmos — Andrew4Handel
even if one is not an antinatalist there is a case for reducing the number of people to reduce the amount of suffering — Andrew4Handel
It doesn't work to point out that the person chose to go to the concert hall, because being born isn't a consent issue. Why not? Because for consent to be an issue, it requires someone normally capable of granting or withholding consent. That requirement is not met when we're talking about conception/birth, so consent isn't an issue there. — Terrapin Station
Even if I was to distill this argument down to collateral damage- by having someone who did not want to go through life in the first place, you created a lifetime of collateral damage. This is not a minor type of collateral damage we are talking here, but a whole lifetime of existence. If no one is born, no actual person is deprived of anything, either. There is no person in a locked room going, "Let me in!". — schopenhauer1
What does that have to do with whether being conceived or born is a consent issue? — Terrapin Station
Because your little supposed paradox cuts both ways. No one exists to be deprived of anything either. — schopenhauer1
Where did I mention anything like that?
You're going through a talking points script that doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying. — Terrapin Station
The problem of consent arises after someone is born because they did not consent to anything. — Andrew4Handel
Ok, well I can also say, "People do not exist, prior to birth, to be deprived of the "goods" of life". — schopenhauer1
Right. And what does that idea have to do with anything I've typed? I'm asking you twice now. I didn't say anything at all resembling potential kids being deprived of anything. Read my posts instead of checking off your prepared talking points. — Terrapin Station
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