Then how did humans come to know chemical composition of an apple? — Harry Hindu
You are now talking about the light not the apple. I asked what we were missing about the appl — Harry Hindu
How do you know that's not how perception works, unless you had access to what perception really is? — Harry Hindu
You keep contradicting yourself in claiming that we can never experience things as they are, yet you make all these claims about things as they are. — Harry Hindu
The errors come about when we think that the perception is only about the object, and not about both the body and object. — Harry Hindu
On a realist account, the object exists whether anyone is perceiving it. — Marchesk
There's an error of thinking that an object is some way from a "perspectiveless perspective." There is no such thing. — Terrapin Station
Sounds like youwere saying the object only exists from some perspective. — Marchesk
"Perspective" as in from some reference point or other. I'm not alluding to perception in that. As I said, "Our perception is just another perspective." — Terrapin Station
Then that sounds sort of like object oriented ontology where all objects are in relation to one another which isn't exhaustive, so no object has complete access to another. That would include humans. — Marchesk
There's an error of thinking that an object is some way from a "perspectiveless perspective." — Terrapin Station
Yes, the feeling of cold/heat cannot be the temperature the thermometer measures because the feeling varies between individuals and even the same individual when the thermometer does not.
I'd just say that it's a way of talking with one another, rather than something which exists.
— Moliere
I don't see how that's possible. Language doesn't make us feel cold or hot. Animals and babies feel heat. It's biological. And language doesn't make a thermometer work the way it does. That's physics.
Physics gives us an explanation which doesn't depend on feeling at all. It says temperature is the result of kinetic energy of particles.
Thus we have an appearance of heat/cold that's biologically based, and we have the temperature reading, which is physics based. The feeling didn't tell our ancestors what temperature was, only that we should avoid things that were too cold or hot for us, and that certain things happened when it was hot (fire starting) or cold enough (water freezing). But they didn't know why.
The skeptics thought we couldn't know, but the stoic retort, "I'm horsed", shows why it is possible to know. — Marchesk
This is why the subjective-objective divide exists, whatever conclusions we draw from such a division. — Marchesk
From a "perspectiveless perspective" (which means considered as they are absent being perceived) — Janus
If all you're saying is that nothing is without relations, or that a thing is nothing over and above its relations, then I agree. — Janus
Particular frames or points of reference exist only (predominately) for humans and perhaps (and if so, much more minimally as far as we know) other percipients, do they not? — Janus
Frames of reference — Terrapin Station
Exactly what I was saying is exactly what I wrote out. Which is why I wrote it out just as I did. If other words would have done the job better, I would have used those other words instead. — Terrapin Station
So you think there is physics without percipients? Not what physics describes mind, but physics itself? — Janus
Classic Terrapin. — Noah Te Stroete
Well, it's ridiculous. Why would I write something in set-of-words x when set-of-words y says what I really want to say? Just say what you really want to say from the start. — Terrapin Station
A frame of reference just is a concept and concepts do not exist without percipients (unless you're a Platonist). You seem confused about this simple fact. — Janus
A frame of reference just is a concept — Janus
The concept refers to something. It doesn't refer to itself. Use/mention? Ring a bell? — Terrapin Station
The concept refers to something. It doesn't refer to itself. Use/mention? Ring a bell? — Terrapin Station
Sure: the phrase 'frame of reference' refers to the concept frame of reference. — Janus
No, it doesn't it doesn't refer to itself. — Terrapin Station
I think you two are talking past each other. A concept is inherently both mental and as referring to something extra mental. My justification for the belief that the idealism vs. materialism debate is confused. — Noah Te Stroete
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