Yes, of course we all know by now, O would-be Guru, that anyone who disagrees with you, or even has the temerity to ask you to present and justify the reasoning supporting your claims, has failed to understand. — Janus
Yes, of course we all know by now, O would-be Guru, that anyone who disagrees with you, or even has the temerity to ask you to present and justify the reasoning supporting your claims, has failed to understand. — Janus
I thought I was creating the opportunity for him to explain his ideas — ZhouBoTong
Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions...are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves "believers" because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as "atheists" because they think religious metaphors are lies.
OK I will try. — Wayfarer
it is expected that one is either a believer or one is not. — Wayfarer
there can't be anything real in it, as to believe so is to thrown in your lot with the believers (isn't it?) — Wayfarer
But I have always tried to resist this dichotomy, which I think is very much due to the cultural dynamics of Christianity, and Protestantism in particular. — Wayfarer
After all in Protestantism, exclusive emphasis is put on salvation by faith alone. Right belief, 'ortho-doxa' is of utmost importance (although ultimately for Calvinists, even that is no guarantee of salvation.) Along with that undercurrent, is the general tendency to conceive of God as being like a celestial director or magistrate. — Wayfarer
Against that background the only two options seem to be either acquiescing to belief or rejecting it altogether. — Wayfarer
After all, to believe is to be required to believe in a very particular way. — Wayfarer
And obviously the secular thinker has decided for rejection so the whole question is done and dusted. — Wayfarer
So the upshot is, there is a hard line when it comes to what is regarded as "supernatural". It is, by definition, a kind of cultural taboo; not only taboo, but something for which even the appropriate metaphors can no longer be found. So this shows up in many of the threads here about religion, by secular people who haven't much actual grounding in it; not sure what is at stake, but certain that it must be ultimately fallacious or superseded or archaic. — Wayfarer
So, that leads to exchanges where the "secular" view has a kind of presumptive authority, like, "if you're going to defend the notion of an "invisible being" then you'd better have some kind of evidence!" — Wayfarer
many are drawn to religions out of necessity, the realisation of the existential plight of everyday life; and if you don't feel that necessity, then it's always going to seem incomprehensible. — Wayfarer
Second, to really grasp what it has that has been rejected by secular modernity takes considerable imagination and study. — Wayfarer
In times past, everyone was 'religious' — Wayfarer
It only became conceivable to challenge that due to particular developments in Western culture of the last several hundred years. — Wayfarer
So a lot of what us moderns take for granted about the nature of things might be inconcievable to our forbears — Wayfarer
The upshot is, the meaning of some of the fundamental attitudes of philosophical theology are so remote from our own experience, that they are dismissed as sophistry or rationalisation — Wayfarer
Whereas, the claims of 'scientific atheism' are regarded as well-founded, practically self-evident, based on things that 'everyone knows', or should know. So, then, trying to challenge this received wisdom (or what poses as wisdom) is often futile. — Wayfarer
'scientific atheism' — Wayfarer
are regarded as well-founded, practically self-evident, based on things that 'everyone knows', or should know. So, then, trying to challenge this received wisdom (or what poses as wisdom) is often futile. — Wayfarer
Hence my reticence — Wayfarer
Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions...are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves "believers" because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as "atheists" because they think religious metaphors are lies. — Wayfarer
But I have always tried to resist this dichotomy, which I think is very much due to the cultural dynamics of Christianity, and Protestantism in particular.
— Wayfarer
I do not understand this part. — ZhouBoTong
when the penalty for disbelief is death or being ostracized, it would have been tough to get an actual count. — ZhouBoTong
if you say 'scientific atheism' they may latch onto the science part and say something along the lines of "well you are happy to embrace science when it gives you a smart phone, but then dismiss it when it is inconvenient". — ZhouBoTong
I still don't get it - but I will try. — ZhouBoTong
I know mine represents a minority view but will generally attempt to argue for it and defend it. — Wayfarer
know of three mainstream religions which may be said to believe in the "mosaic" God - Judaism, Christianity and Islam — BrianW
are you saying that Islam follows the OT (the 5 books of Moses and the Mosaic traditions)? — Hanover
The conception of God (and His behavior) changed over time, particularly after Moses' departure after Exodus. So, reference to the Mosaic God does reference something distinct. — Hanover
How is the God of Abraham different from the God of Moses?
And since Jews have traditionally held that Moses wrote Genesis, how do they account for the change? — frank
So how is the Abrahamic God different from the Mosaic one? — frank
Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?
God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
(Exodus 3:13-15)
Why do you ask my name? (Genesis 32:29
The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. (Genesis 2:18-19)
"Do you believe in 'x'?" I don't see an answer that makes sense besides yes or no. — ZhouBoTong
"if you expect ME to believe any of this stuff about an 'invisible being' then you'd better have some kind of evidence" — ZhouBoTong
Moses unites the various stories and beliefs that developed over time among the Egyptian Jews. — Fooloso4
To the later monotheistic God:
Deuteronomy 6:4
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." — Hanover
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
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