And nobody's gonna go to school today
She's going to make them stay at home
And daddy doesn't understand it
He always said she was as good as gold
And he can see no reason
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be sure
Tell me why
I don't like Mondays
— Bob Geldof

about the 1979 Cleveland Elementary School shooting in San Diego. — unenlightened

Dang. And I thought that 'pumped up kicks' was the only mass shooting song that I enjoyed.

Also - Bob Geldof from The Wall? He was in Boomtown Rats? (I am pretty sure that is the band famous for this song) Guess we learn something everyday.

And already folks are blaming Trump, and blaming gun laws But there are no reasons, what reason do you need to be sure? The El Paso shooter put out a 'manifesto' of racial hate and fear, but I believe him even less than the reports that it is Trump. — unenlightened

As someone who enjoys some criticism of trump, I can only agree here. I was thinking this weekend watching the news..."wait, we are discussing motive?" I thought mass murder was a game that could only be played by the insane. I get that psychology is more complicated than that. However, 30% of this country STRONGLY supports trump, and I am not worried that those people are going to shoot up the place (I am worried they may end legal access to abortion or re-create Jim-Crow type laws, and of course just plain normalizing hatred).

Not sure on the viking connection or 1979. Surely the ramping up of these events over the last 2 decades suggests some current cultural component?

A couple of mass shootings in the US today, Dayton, and before that El Paso. The nothing-newness of this is obvious and much as philosophers would like there to be, 'there are no reasons.' Facebook would think it racist of me to mention that we are usually talking about white males. — unenlightened

I just checked the web. The worst year for mass shootings in the US since 1982 was 2017 with about 120 deaths. 2018 and 2019 data are not included. 120 out of 340,000,000 people. Out of more than 17,000 murders in 2017. To try to say this is some kind of epidemic of Viking berserkers shows a lack of perspective.

I've barely read him, but I know Rene Girard said something to the effect that the physiological state of being angry is something that takes hold of a person, demanding discharge, and the body doesn't consider whether the victim of that discharge is the original offender or not - it simply believes it. In any society, Girard says, there is a gradual build up of anger-inducing wrongs (or perceived wrongs) which becomes more and more liable to erupt in carnage (e.g. neverending cycles of retaliation or genocide) So, sacrifice and scapegoats: communal discharge leading to a subsequent regluing.

(Girards a christian because what is Jesus but an eternal scapegoat who not only suffers your misplaced rage but also, miracle & mystery, forgives you for raging at all.)


I wonder if the beserker phenomenon (which seems very apt, considering the absence and exhaustion of, say, the aurora shooter at his hearing) is an extreme end of a spectrum of this kind of stored anger which has to distort reality to find release.

I have an idea (which may not be borne out by the facts) that young white male shooters might tend to members of sections of society that represent themselves to themselves as beyond violence, obviating the need for any communal discharge, while actually internally discharging that anger in various forms (toxic family dynamics, bullying, the winner/loser dynamic of american society etc.) In past societies, the scapegoat was killed, the violence is flushed down the tube that goes from this life to the next. But if you pretend there's no scapegoating at all, you don't even recognize that its happening, and the scapegoat is left dazed to make sense of an anger and violence that doesn't officially exist.


I once heard an npr interview with a psychologist considering the Newtown shooter. He offered a theory, based on a hodgepodge of details of the shooters life, that the shooter purposely chose the worst possible thing he could do, in order to make sense of the crushing feeling he had of being evil. Its as though the process happened backwards. The disavowed scapegoat makes himself avowed, by committing the crime he distortedly already feels the retribution of. (Adorno (or one of the frankfurt guys) made a similar observation, that some criminals seem to commit crimes to give some tangible, finite explanation to an intangible, infinite guilt. The guilt precedes the crime. As a kid might act out to give concrete object to Dads angry sulk, that kid not being able to comprehend the idea of nursing a wound brought home from work.)

None of which is meant as an absolution for horrible crimes, the violence of which exceeds , by orders of magnitude, any harm the perpetrator suffered previously. One is responsible for one's actions no matter what one may have suffered in the past.

Yet we know there will always be people who fail to live up to that responsibility and so, if any of that is right, the hard question is: what to do, given that it's no longer an option to throw virgins in volcanos?

But there's still a lot of mass shootings in the US and there's a qualitative difference between a mass shooting and other murders. Maybe there's a relation between the fact of 17000(!) hardly visible murders (invisible to the nation as a whole) and irruptions of very visible ones. Imagine the hardening of self it takes to do a premeditated murder; then the surrender of self to 'passion' it takes to kill in hot blood; then, finally, the dissociation inherent in perpetrating a mass killing.

I mean even 9/11 pales in the face of 17000, but its still

What is the perspective thats lacking? What does that perspective reveal?

A couple of mass shootings in the US today, Dayton, and before that El Paso. The nothing-newness of this is obvious and much as philosophers would like there to be, 'there are no reasons.' Facebook would think it racist of me to mention that we are usually talking about white males.

And already folks are blaming Trump, and blaming gun laws But there are no reasons, what reason do you need to be sure? The El Paso shooter put out a 'manifesto' of racial hate and fear, but I believe him even less than the reports that it is Trump — unenlightened

The serial killer tends to be the white male and the common murderer tends not to be a Trump supporter. That's just the truth, racist or not.

One should think the reason, regardless of demographics, behind the murder is frustration. I'd think that when the decision to murder is reached, no other options seem viable. Powerlessness. Asserting control.

Why that happens in the US more than other places, we can speculate.

One should think the reason, regardless of demographics, behind the murder is frustration. I'd think that when the decision to murder is reached, no other options seem viable. Powerlessness. Asserting control. — Hanover

Yeah, definitely, terrorism in general, bracket race, it's clear it's frustration. I suppose the question is how to determine what means we leave at the disposal of the frustrated. We do know that frustration will continue. And so mass shootings will continue. What's wanted is a robust explanation of how leaving the means at their disposable is worth it because [x]. this will happen with some regularity, yes, but its a tragic necessity, bc [x].

One should think the reason, regardless of demographics, behind the murder is frustration. — Hanover

Hmm. Perhaps I have a different idea of what reason is. The thrust of the op is is that 'I don't like Mondays' does not count as a reason, even if it counts as a cause, and neither does 'I don't like foreigners'.

To try to say this is some kind of epidemic of Viking berserkers shows a lack of perspective. — T Clark

Good job no one said then, because a lack of perspective is a major symptom of incipient mass murder.
Nevertheless, as I pointed out, there are parallels between the US and Viking cultures, and one of them is the centrality of the hero, the individual of power to individual and national identity, hence the abhorrence of anything "social".

I don't want to push the Viking thing any further than that, it is intended merely as a provocation to have a fresh think. I want to make a couple of suggestions: that the roots of the phenomenon are deep, and on the one hand a part of human nature, and on the other, (ironically) highly socially conditioned.

The guilt precedes the crime. As a kid might act out to give concrete object to Dads angry sulk, that kid not being able to comprehend the idea of nursing a wound brought home from work. — csalisbury

Well yes, what you say is all good psychological stuff, and psychological stuff is in the business of making sense of folly. I don't disagree with this approach, but I want to try another line, that says this is heroic, laudable behaviour that has been 'misplaced'. Encouraged by the culture as the apotheosis of manhood and leadership and so on.

Hmm. Perhaps I have a different idea of what reason is. The thrust of the op is is that 'I don't like Mondays' does not count as a reason, even if it counts as a cause, and neither does 'I don't like foreigners'. — unenlightened

Actually, I misunderstood where you were going with the OP. This issue is what I really wanted to talk about, but I didn't want to go off on a tangent.

The song is one of my favorites. I think "there is no reason" is a great reason. I think it applies to most things in the world, in two senses - First, I have said many times that I don't think the universe has any reasons in it. All we can do is describe how it is. Why - just because, which is what "I don't like Monday's means. Second - I think it goes further - not only are there no reasons, there are no causes also. I'm not sure about that. Still working on it.

One of the reasons I love the song is that, although it is obviously ironic and cynical, I also find it moving. I like to think the Boomtown Rats meant it that way. It puts you in the girl's mind, makes her human, in a way you couldn't do otherwise.

What is the perspective thats lacking? What does that perspective reveal? — csalisbury

I think it reveals that our society is unable to understand what is important. 120 people. It makes me sick when TV and other media broadcast hysterical reports full of outrage and fake tears. It's such bologna. The worst thing is that the kind of action that really can address violence does not come from attitudes of horror and outrage.

For what it's worth, the murder rate in the US is half of what it was in 1980. 650,000 die of heart disease annually. Cancer 600,000. Let's put our energy there.

For what it's worth, the murder rate in the US is half of what it was in 1980. 650,000 die of heart disease annually. Cancer 600,000. Let's put our energy there. — T Clark

Well... school shootings would be less... likely if... there were... less readily available gu-

I'll be over there in the corner.

"The Modern American social order and religion are able to accommodate this type of behaviour... " — unenlightened

99.9999% of Americans accommodate, tolerate, put up with, etc. this sort of violent behavior because there is nothing they can individually do about it. We could, should, must do something about it collectively, but collective action among 300,000,000 diverse people isn't exactly a simple thing.

But apart from being the cradle of democracy, having a penchant for bloody invasions of other countries, being despised and feared around the world, and having plenty of berserkers, how is the US like a Viking nation? — unenlightened

We're more like the British, I would think. The British Empire was not a tea party. Neither were the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Belgian, German, or Russian empires. Ye Brits turned out less savage (at home, anyway) thanks to long established class system which kept the lumpen proles under pretty tight control.

Why are the British people accommodating the (quite possibly) insane exit from the EU? Well, various people have argued vociferously and voted against doing it, but it's not very easy for you all to come to a consensus that doing so could be a really, really big mistake. And there are a batch of you who are determined to leave, come Hell or High Water.

But you know this.

Well... school shootings would be less... likely if... there were... less readily available gu-

I'll be over there in the corner. — fdrake

I grew up hunting and shooting, although I don't own a gun now and have no desire to. A couple of years ago we found my brother's and my shot guns and rifles down in my step mothers basement. I hadn't shot them in 45 years. We told her she could give them to a friend.

I am comfortable around guns and generally believe that seriously restricting gun ownership in the US won't work. I think all the outrage put into trying could better be spent elsewhere. On the other hand, I know conservative gun owners who believe that reasonable restrictions are a good idea.

Boomtown Rats — T Clark

Never heard of them. I suppose I should get out more. (But I did bother to listen to the song on YouTube, so now I know.)

Never heard of them. — Bitter Crank

They are primarily a 1980s band.

Actually, I misunderstood where you were going with the OP. This issue is what I really wanted to talk about, but I didn't want to go off on a tangent. — T Clark

I wanted to go a little further with this, beyond just reasons, or lack of, in the universe at large. I think looking for reasons for human behavior is misleading. Most things most people do are for no reason at all. We add the reasons later because we can't live without putting things into words.

I think all the outrage put into trying could better be spent elsewhere. — T Clark

We modern Americans have become rather fussy about these little clusters of deaths brought about by armed individuals. Suppose the media stopped being the media and stopped reporting each one with loving care. Do you think the incidence of mass shootings would go up or down?

It does reveal a shocking lack of perspective. 6 people were killed in a head on collision near my home town. 1/2 of the 6 were decidedly in the wrong (they were on the wrong side of the freeway). Where was the outrage?

"Excess deaths" (those caused by something less predictable than natural causes like disease, old age, etc.) are common. Auto/motorcycle accidents, fires, industrial accidents, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, heat waves, drownings, suicides, falls in the home (those stairs are out to get you -- so is the bathroom), and so on. Think of the carnage of the westward expansion which the English started back in 1620: Millions killed, quite deliberately--with guns!

17,000 deaths a year are the result of 1-by-1, or 2-by-1 armed assailants, quite often the victim having no connection to the killer because the man with the gun was firing wildly... Where are "thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families"? (When it comes to mass shootings and much else, nothing fails like thoughts and prayers!)

They are primarily a 1980s band. — T Clark

That explains it. I was busy in the 1980s studying classics, advancing the sexual revolution, going crazy, working...

That explains it. I was busy in the 1980s studying classics, advancing the sexual revolution, going crazy, working... — Bitter Crank

There is no shame in those things. Well...some of them.

Good job no one said then, because a lack of perspective is a major symptom of incipient mass murder.

Nevertheless, as I pointed out, there are parallels between the US and Viking cultures, and one of them is the centrality of the hero, the individual of power to individual and national identity, hence the abhorrence of anything "social". — unenlightened

Yes, I was overstating my case for emphasis, although I think the Viking theory is silly. Again, it's people trying to say something to make themselves feel better, more in control of frightening things.

I am comfortable around guns and generally believe that seriously restricting gun ownership in the US won't work. I think all the outrage put into trying could better be spent elsewhere. On the other hand, I know conservative gun owners who believe that reasonable restrictions are a good idea. — T Clark

No one is ever saying that a gun causes someone to shoot things. An intersectional approach is required to understand their effects here; guns are facilitators and final solutions for problems generated in the intersection of societal pressures and personal issues. Race also plays a role; the majority of these school shooters are mid-teen white guys. Sexism and racial prejudice seems to plays a role; whenever they deign to write manifestos anyway. None of these things causes any individual to shoot their schoolmates, it's not reductive like that, they are all facilitating factors bottling up alienated rage.

High school shootings should probably be considered domestic terrorism; the actions of the perpetrators should be condemned, but the issues that lead them to it should be understood so that they can be addressed.

High school shootings should probably be considered domestic terrorism; the actions of the perpetrators should be condemned, but the issues that lead them to it should be understood so that they can be addressed. — fdrake

Condemnation doesn't lead to solutions. It only helps conceal fear. Solutions come from understanding and even, yes, compassion for people who do bad things.

compassion for people who do bad things — T Clark

Yes. Compassion good. That kind of article that portrays high school shooters as misunderstood loners in need of love, not so good. No one's ever been around for that.

Yes. Compassion good. That kind of article that portrays high school shooters as misunderstood loners in need of love, not so good. No one's ever been around for that. — fdrake

I have a friend to whom some terrible things happened when she was young. It's amazing to hear her speak with compassion and understanding about the family member who did those things to her. It changed the way I think about people who do bad things.

I think of Pope John Paul II, who went to the prison in Italy and washed the feet of the man who shot and almost killed him.

I think of Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, and the Truth and Reconciliation Commissions set up after apartheid ended. To me, that was one of the great political acts in history.

Compassion and understanding lead where they lead. They don't mean that you don't hold people responsible for what they've done.

I had the strangest experience in an Art museum one time. This was playing in one of the exhibits, and I thought, "Is this Bob Geldof!?"

I liken school shootings to be a result of extreme alienation. It's like getting way too into Black Metal or something. Has anyone seen the film that Gus Van Sant did about Columbine called Elephant? He does really well to portray that such incidents only really ask questions. There are only things that we glean as to why tragedies like that occur. All of the interpretation of such events is speculation.

We modern Americans have become rather fussy about these little clusters of deaths brought about by armed individuals. Suppose the media stopped being the media and stopped reporting each one with loving care. Do you think the incidence of mass shootings would go up or down? — Bitter Crank

Here's something I've always remembered that I think is relevant - When my 34 year old son was 9, there was an attempted kidnapping in a town that was about 30 miles away. Unlike Kansas or Minnesota, 30 miles is a long way in Massachusetts. One of our neighbors wouldn't let their children play outside for a week after the incident. I think that's the difference. It probably wouldn't reduce the number of incidents, but it would help stop the continuous low level anxiety that many people feel. People are very bad at estimating risk.

It does reveal a shocking lack of perspective. 6 people were killed in a head on collision near my home town. 1/2 of the 6 were decidedly in the wrong (they were on the wrong side of the freeway). Where was the outrage? — Bitter Crank

When the bomb went off during the Boston Marathon, five people were killed and a couple of hundred injured. Elsewhere, a similar event is sometimes known as "a good day in Aleppo." Americans are such pussies. 3,000 people die in New York and the entire country changes it's way of life and outlook. Elsewhere, a similar event is sometimes known as "a bad week in Aleppo."

I think it reveals that our society is unable to understand what is important. 120 people. It makes me sick when TV and other media broadcast hysterical reports full of outrage and fake tears. It's such bologna. The worst thing is that the kind of action that really can address violence does not come from attitudes of horror and outrage.

For what it's worth, the murder rate in the US is half of what it was in 1980. 650,000 die of heart disease annually. Cancer 600,000. Let's put our energy there. — T Clark

There is a lot of energy being put there though. The reality of the collective pain of those who have lost loved one to cancer isnt lessened by the attention given to mass shootings. I could ask : did something in your own life upset you this month? Even when hundreds of thousands are dying of cancer? Shouldn't you ignore that thing that upset you, then, and focus on helping the cancer cause? But this isn't a healthy way to approach things.

Un's post - and mine for that matter - don't strike me as outrage, much less the outrage of a rube grifted by yellow journalists.

We're more like the British, I would think. — Bitter Crank

The County of Sutherland in Scotland got its name from its position in the Viking territory. The word 'thing' is derived from the Viking word for their parliament. The British are the Vikings, and we still describe people who go energetically and violently insane as 'berserk'. All you whiteys are European, and your horrible culture is all based on Europe's; the vikings are an influence beyond question.

I think the Viking theory is silly. Again, it's people trying to say something to make themselves feel better, more in control of frightening things. — T Clark

It's not 'people' saying anything, it's me, no one else. And it's not a theory - see reply to BC. The 'theory' I am illustrating with an example from history, is that when the same thing keeps happening again and again in a society over decades, it cannot be sensibly regarded as an aberration. Universities inevitably have dropouts, and hero-worship inevitably has berserkers. This is our normal.

There is a lot of energy being put there though. — csalisbury

True. Those are probably bad examples, but the fact that 1.2 million people die by those diseases and 1/10,000 th that many die in mass shootings gives a perspective on how much attention should be put on the mass killings.

Un's post - and mine for that matter - don't strike me as outrage, much less the outrage of a rube grifted by yellow journalists. — csalisbury

Looking back, I don't think "outrage" is the wrong word. If you'd like, I'll change it to "alarm," along with the aforementioned lack of perspective. On the other hand, the general public and media response is outrage and condemnation. As to whether you and Unenlightened are rubes, fact is you wouldn't have made such a big deal about this if the media hadn't made this a sideshow.

when the same thing keeps happening again and again in a society over decades, it cannot be sensibly regarded as an aberration. Universities inevitably have dropouts, and hero-worship inevitably has berserkers. This is our normal. — unenlightened

120/year doesn't quite match up with "happening again and again." It's not an aberration or anything else, it's as close to a non-event as you can get. 120 out of a population of 340 million. Put your attention somewhere else. You're not going to save a significant number of lives by any action you take.

You're not going to save a significant number of lives by any action you take. — T Clark

You have absolutely no idea how many lives my posts might save or cost. Perhaps a potential shooter will be transformed, or possibly pushed over the edge by something they read here. If you think the topic is of no significance, what are you doing posting so much about it? Feel free to turn your attention to significant issues any time. You are talking complete bollocks anyway; should we ignore presidential elections because they don't happen 'again and again' by your ridiculous interpretation?

If you think the topic is of no significance, what are you doing posting so much about it? Feel free to turn your attention to significant issues any time. — unenlightened

I'm posting about it because the mismatch between the events and the attention being given to them is significant. I'm commenting on the weakness of the arguments being made, which I think represents an important philosophical issue - the unrealistic understanding people have probabilities and risks.

You are talking complete bollocks anyway; should we ignore presidential elections because they don't happen 'again and again' by your ridiculous interpretation? — unenlightened

They happen every four years and 100,000,000 people participate. I think that meets my criteria for significance. Please tell me why the deaths of 120 people out of a total of 2.8 million is significant.