OK, if this is the case, then you ought to be able to state these presuppositions which you believe Aristotle was operating with, and we can discuss whether he actual was or not, and if he was, we can determine whether your judgement that it is wrong is justified. — Metaphysician Undercover
After some consideration, I choose not to play water-polo with you in your pool. Aristotle is your subject. As to matter, my only point has been that whatever the jr. high school science teacher means by "matter," it is not in any way or sense what Aristotle meant. As to presuppositions of Aristotle, I feel no need to list them. They're there in Stanford.edu, such as they are. In any case he was not a modern scientist. He observed and tried to make sense. A modern scientist asks questions and does experiments to find answers. — tim wood
Mainly it is significant thinking in the history of thinking. — tim wood
In brief, it means that, for example, studying what people have done and thought is usually helpful to current effort."The history of ideas shouldn't be confused with ideas in themselves." What does this mean? — Metaphysician Undercover
Suppose you tried to tell me what the idea of general relativity is. Wouldn't that just be an expression of how the idea affected you, and therefore just a small part of the history of that idea? — Metaphysician Undercover
In brief, it means that, for example, studying what people have done and thought is usually helpful to current effort.
So long ago I do not remember the particulars, an economist addressed the challenge of new manufacturing in countries that did not have good manufacturing and wanted it. This question (c. 1962?) was, why don't countries without good manufacturing just buy "stuff" and copy it, maybe improving it in the process?
By way of answer, the author noted that BMW made excellent motorcycles. The Soviets (as I recall) had bought several and taken them apart on the assumption they had merely to copy and make. They made, they ended up with, the Ural. A look-a-like motorcycle, but in quality as a horse chestnut is to a chestnut horse (thank you Mr. L.). The idea was that in order to have good manufacturing, you have to travel at least most of the path to get there. To learn to make good tools, have good steels, make good plants - a problem of its own - have skilled labor and technicians and management, and on and on. That is, copy and make just is not that simple.
In the same way, the history of philosophy - the history of ideas - is at least as valuable. I've read it - if I could cite I would - that philosophy just is the history of philosophy. Call it the propaedeutic part.
As to the rest of the latter part of your remark, that's too much deconstruction for (my) present purpose. — tim wood
"... just be an expression of..."? Isn't that both minimalist and reductionist beyond sense? It implies that idea is based in a mind and has no independent existence. Granted that people can express ideas in different ways, but the idea itself, to stand as an idea, must have something constant in it independent of either yours or my twist of it. You may have feelings about two plus two equaling four, but they don't touch it, yes? — tim wood
A mind? How about minds?on a mind? — Metaphysician Undercover
In the same way, the history of philosophy - the history of ideas - is at least as valuable. I've read it - if I could cite I would - that philosophy just is the history of philosophy. Call it the propaedeutic part. — tim wood
Arguably the human brain given its methods of perception has itself evolved into a cognizing organ of very great sensitivity to the world it finds itself in - or more accurately, to the world as it perceives it. Were we whales or porpoises or squid, or had we thousands of eyes like a fly, or if like May flies we lived a day, or some other things that live very long times, or if we were just plain a lot different that we are, then likely we would have very different ideas of our world. — tim wood
EINSTEIN: I cannot prove scientifically that Truth must be conceived as a Truth that is valid independent of humanity; but I believe it firmly. I believe, for instance, that the Pythagorean theorem in geometry states something that is approximately true, independent of the existence of man.
what I find in most ancient philosophies and religions - and imo all religions are ancient, even the modern ones, is the attempt to make sense, but with the only recourse to make the sense being non-sense - and a credulous audience. — tim wood
That is what almost every accepts, but I question it on the basis that at a certain point in evolutionary history, we became language-using, rational beings - and thereby transcend the biological, so to speak. — Wayfarer
The question I would have asked Einstein is, who knows this other than man? — Wayfarer
I am of the view that such figures as Socrates and the Buddha were historical persons, and were possessed of real wisdom. — Wayfarer
Cats communicate. Dogs communicate. The news is full of stories of animals that communicate. — tim wood
...human language involves the capacity to generate, by a recursive procedure, an unlimited number of hierarchically structured sentences. A trivial example of such a sentence is this: “How many cars did you tell your friends that they should tell their friends . . . that they should tell the mechanics to fix?” (The ellipses indicate that the number of levels in the hierarchy can be extended without limit.) Notice that the word “fix” goes with “cars,” rather than with “friends” or “mechanics,” even though “cars” is farther apart from “fix” in linear distance. The mind recognizes the connection, because “cars” and “fix” are at the same level in the sentence’s hierarchy. ...
Animal communication can be quite intricate. For example, some species of “vocal-learning” songbirds, notably Bengalese finches and European starlings, compose songs that are long and complex. But in every case, animal communication has been found to be based on rules of linear order. Attempts to teach Bengalese finches songs with hierarchical syntax have failed. The same is true of attempts to teach sign language to apes. Though the famous chimp Nim Chimpsky was able to learn 125 signs of American Sign Language, careful study of the data has shown that his “language” was purely associative and never got beyond memorized two-word combinations with no hierarchical structure.
The Christian - the real Christian - entertains no such nonsense. "We believe..," is his creed, and the belief is not in a material being, but in a kind of efficacy, good and astute psychology personified into an exotic trinity of beings. — tim wood
A mind? How about minds?
Or maybe you're just arguing that in the whole entire history of the universe every single instant that ever was or ever will be is unique. Not only can you not step into the same river twice, you cannot even once. Is that where you're going? And every thing, which requires continuity, is just a dream, because nothing is the same from moment to moment. - wait! not even in dreams! Is that where you're aiming? — tim wood
In the Augustine citation almost the first qualification that meets the eye is "...must be independent of particular minds...".
I buy the notion that no mind(s) at all, then no ideas. Plenty to think about, but no one to do the thinking, or even to think about the possibility. But given minds, you get something like Mind, the collective and dynamic wisdom of..., that as history plays out, ebbs and flows, and has its spring and neap tides, its seasons of flood and drought.
A difficulty I have with any notions of being-less minds being the author and communicator to us of reality-as-we-perceive-it, is that the people who themselves create such theories do it to give an account, and the only account they can think of, of what we perceive and how we perceive it. In every case they simply do not have access to any understanding of the history of the development of mind - brain - itself over, what, most of five-hundred-million years? Maybe four hundred million?
Arguably the human brain given its methods of perception has itself evolved into a cognizing organ of very great sensitivity to the world it finds itself in - or more accurately, to the world as it perceives it. Were we whales or porpoises or squid, or had we thousands of eyes like a fly, or if like May flies we lived a day, or some other things that live very long times, or if we were just plain a lot different that we are, then likely we would have very different ideas of our world.
So what I find in most ancient philosophies and religions - and imo all religions are ancient, even the modern ones, is the attempt to make sense, but with the only recourse to make the sense being non-sense - and a credulous audience. Unfortunately credulity too is both an ancient and a modern trait, with some excuse for them, and not-so-much or hardly any at all for us.
Of course this Mind in question is human mind, its wisdom, as opposed to knowledge, mainly in good and astute psychology. But this won't do at all for either of the myth-ifiers or the mystifiers. Just leaves the question if we will survive them. — tim wood
This I neither thought nor said. What I mean is that there are individual minds, "and given minds, you get something like Mind." Offhand I'd agree that ideas - the content of them - originate in one mind, or a few working together - I suppose one must always be first. But as the knowledge becomes generally known, it becomes a community possession. No special mystery here.There's a deep inconsistency here. Let's take the assumption that an idea is dependent on minds, and cannot be produced, nor maintained simply by the single mind of an individual human being. — Metaphysician Undercover
But then you belittle this Mind by saying "this Mind in question is human Mind". — Metaphysician Undercover
This I neither thought nor said. What I mean is that there are individual minds, "and given minds, you get something like Mind." Offhand I'd agree that ideas - the content of them - originate in one mind, or a few working together - I suppose one must always be first. But as the knowledge becomes generally known, it becomes a community possession. No special mystery here. — tim wood
You apparently missed that the article wasn't there. Human mind, not a human mind. — tim wood
My own view is that the unmoved mover should be understood in terms of Aristotle's hylomorphism and naturalism and not in Platonic terms. That would be consistent with his rejection of Plato's forms.
— Andrew M
Interesting to consider how that might work. — AJJ
I like the Aristotelian emphasis on the material, as opposed to the Platonic notion of the world being something we must ascend from; but I’m inclined also to think the world is an imitation of things higher than it - seems there’s enough ambiguity to hold to both approaches. — AJJ
Just common sense and common usage. Yours is an illegitimate reification of a notion of mine. — tim wood
Consider, for example, American freedom, such as it is these days. Where and in what does in inhere? Steve's mind? Bob's mind? Stephanie's mind? Perhaps some aspect of it, some sense of it, in all their minds. What do you call that collectivity when it includes 300+ million Americans? I'd call it the American mind - not necessarily restricted to Americans. Is the American mind a thing? Have you ever the hear the expression "American mind"? — tim wood
Or where is language stored? For example, English? In the minds of English speakers. What might you call that collectivity? — tim wood
Or any kind of thinking that comes in groups. So-and-so has a mathematical mind, or a legal mind, or an artist's mind, and so forth. This is all just common usage. — tim wood
Aristotle identifies a different kind of cause - a final cause. The golfer moves his hand because he desires to play golf. Thus he is the unmoved mover that causes the golf ball to move. — Andrew M
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