I'm not seeking to convert you out of antinatalism, but the absolute conviction that you have found the ultimate truth, and that everyone else is a fool for not following suit — staticphoton
I would have to know something better than cleaning sewage to be able to decide whether cleaning sewage sucked — staticphoton
Do you believe Beethoven’s parents should not have had Ludwig because he suffered through deafness? Yes no harm no foul, but then again, no Moonlight sonata. — NOS4A2
Well, like you said, no one is harmed, but it denies the world and posterity a human being who may alter the course of history for the better. — NOS4A2
I don’t have such a conviction or I wouldn’t be here, again. I do however have quite the strong conviction that you’re being a hypocrite to your own values. Especially since you keep avoiding giving straight answers — khaled
Your values are nobody lives — staticphoton
I believe everyone should be entitled to do what they believe is right. — staticphoton
You believe only your values are right. — staticphoton
And that makes me a hypocrite lol. — staticphoton
Again, would that psycho be right for what he did? You’re still not answering questions which is quite ironic because the quote you quoted is literally me telling you to please answer the questions — khaled
Me too. Do you not also believe that no one should be entitled to make OTHERS do hat THEY believe is valuable? — khaled
Please do not lure me like this, as the two questions are incomparable.You actually truly believe that? So again I ask
You have 3 starving people and 2 solutions
A: feed them
B: materialize 100 satiated people such that you create more pleasure than in A
Would you seriously pick B? — khaled
No, man is not morally obliged to have children.Also let me ask you another question: do you think someone is ever morally obliged to have children? — khaled
It is slavery to fear.That is wise when dealing with other people you don’t know. The default is to do the action that doesn’t risk harm. Would you appreciate it if someone destroyed your house in an attempt to add a room to it when you didn’t ask him to do so. — khaled
The world as a whole.Who is harmed by me not having children? Where is this failure? — khaled
My values are mine but the highest one among them is: I can’t enforce my values on others, and I think you share this too (as do most people). You’re just making an exception for procreation — khaled
The very foundation of your argument is that human reason provides the ultimate answer for all ethical questions and is above all other forms of moral guidance. — staticphoton
If a Psycho is harming someone, that is bad — staticphoton
Making someone do something means extracting them out of condition A and inserting them into condition B. — staticphoton
The theft of happiness that we're discussing — Shamshir
Would you feed them if there was a chance for them to be allergic, even if the chance was 99%? — Shamshir
But if I were to offer the three starving these two choices and they all chose B, would it be moral to choose A anyway? — Shamshir
No, man is not morally obliged to have children.
But man ought to be morally obliged not to deny children — Shamshir
You're making decisions for the child you're not even willing to give a chance. — Shamshir
You're not sparing it harm, you're sparing yourself the responsibility if it comes to harm and unwilling to risk that it might enjoy its life with gratitude to spare. — Shamshir
Something I've seen from my many interactions with disabled children; they don't want your pity, they want to live. — Shamshir
Your failure is the failure to see past the corrupt idea that kids don't desire to live. — Shamshir
But mostly the children. — Shamshir
The world as a whole. — Shamshir
So you don’t believe human reason has the answer for this ethical question? Why are you reasoning about it then? And why didn’t you say so at the very start? — khaled
I would do A in that case although I don’t know where you got the idea that I was trying to be true to any cause in the first place. — khaled
No, you wouldn't - because these kids can't do either.I would know. My brother has a mutation and can’t do much at 12 except walk and eat. Your arguments seem to be getting more and more personal only to fall even harder on their face. — khaled
instead of putting up this idiotic front, this conversation wouldn't be so needlessly dragged out.Maybe my child would have turned out to be another hitler despite my best efforts. — khaled
That's correct, I don't believe a reasoned logic can be used to determine whether humans should be born or not. — staticphoton
You say you can't harm nonexistent children? Very well.
But if you accept that, follow through and realise you can't spare them harm. — Shamshir
Your idea is void by your own rebuttal. — Shamshir
You're just afraid and if you'd commit to that — Shamshir
instead of putting up this idiotic front, this conversation wouldn't be so needlessly dragged out. — Shamshir
The argument is you equating risk with loss, while being blind to anything and everything potentially good.Having children risks harming someone. So it has a negative value.
So obviously don’t have children. Simple. You are being willfully blind to the fact that the argument makes logical sense. — khaled
The argument is you equating risk with loss, while being blind to anything and everything potentially good. — Shamshir
I've stated quite clearly that having a child is a risk you're not obliged to, but that it is the only rewarding choice. — Shamshir
Your idea that not having children is in any way beneficial is a fraudulent justification of your irresponsibility and sloth. — Shamshir
Considering your current state of mind, perhaps as a natural irony, it would be best that you didn't have children as you'd be an inept parent, more harmful than beneficial. — Shamshir
neither you nor anyone actually believes creating happy people is good in and of itself — khaled
And risking harming other people without their consent for no good reason IS A LOSS. — khaled
I don't see anything that appeals to the parent's desire to have children as a good reason — khaled
And I don't see anything appealing to greater entities such as "the world" or "God" or "the natural order" as a good reason — khaled
I guess we just don't care about the kid's opinion then — khaled
your arrogance is insufferable — leo
I do — leo
I disagree, because inherently a bad experience isn't worth avoiding more than a good experience is worth having. — leo
I don't see anything that appeals to the parent's desire to have children as a good reason
— khaled
I do. — leo
And I don't see anything appealing to greater entities such as "the world" or "God" or "the natural order" as a good reason
— khaled
I do. — leo
A non-existing being doesn't have an opinion. — leo
Let’s test that. You have 3 starving people And 2 solutions. Which do you employ
A: feed them
B: materialize 100 satiated and happy people so that you create more pleasure/happiness than in A — khaled
I'd go with B. The people in A might turn out to be nagging antinatalists. The other 100 might be able to drown them out. :grin: — Terrapin Station
Also the point is that they WILL become an existing being with opinions and their opinions of the world may be highly negative. So simply don’t take the risk for them when you can avoid it. — khaled
As we see here, there is no way this type of thinking cannot be overcome as long as harm can be justified on behalf of a majority of people reporting they like life, and think that agendas are more important than causing individual harm unnecessarily. That seems to be the main themes here it seems with natalists. — schopenhauer1
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