Hang, draw, and quarter.

It's very difficult to tell if anyone is lying, really, because you need to know that what they believe to be the case at time Tx is different than what they're claiming to believe at time Tx. That requires knowing their mental content, contra their expression. Obviously that's not something we can really do.

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This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

It's very difficult to tell if anyone is lying, really, because you need to know that what they believe to be the case at time Tx is different than what they're claiming to believe at time Tx. That requires knowing their mental content, contra their expression. Obviously that's not something we can really do. — Terrapin Station

It can be difficult. It can also be pretty obvious. If I told you that I'm on the moon right now with Chevy Chase, would you believe me? Would you think that I was mistaken? Would you withold judgment? You'd think that I was lying, wouldn't you?

You're not distinguishing between liar, lie, and lying. — tim wood

? No need to, really, unless you don't understand grammatical permutations. "Liar" is the person telling a lie, the lie is what they're uttering that's different than what they believe to be the case, and "lying" is the act.

If I told you that I'm on the moon right now with Chevy Chase, would you believe me? Would you think that I was mistaken? You'd think that I was lying, wouldn't you? — S

How would I know that you don't believe that you're on the moon right now with Chevy Chase? You could be crazy.

How would I know that you don't believe that you're on the moon right now with Chevy Chase? You could be crazy. — Terrapin Station

Seriously?

You don't think that people can have some beliefs?

You don't think that people can have some beliefs? — Terrapin Station

What? Wait, if this is some sort of subtle practical joke, given the title, then hats off to you.

Yes, I do think that people can have some beliefs. And I don't think that you'd entertain as a serious possibility that I'm crazy enough to really believe that I'm on the moon right now with Chevy Chase.

(Even though I really am on the moon right now with Chevy Chase, but that's not the point).

What? Wait, if this some sort of subtle practical joke, given the title, then hats of to you. — S

In other words, there are some beliefs that you'd say that particular individuals couldn't actually hold.

I don't think that. Even if the person doesn't have a history of saying things that are crazy, they could believe something crazy now.

In other words, there are some beliefs that you'd say that particular individuals couldn't actually hold.

I don't think that. Even if the person doesn't have a history of saying things that are crazy, they could believe something crazy now. — Terrapin Station

It would be an extremely remote possibility, so not something that I'd take seriously, because I'm reasonable like that. (As is Chevy Chase. He doesn't give serious consideration to the remote possibility that I believe that we're on the moon together, either. I know that because I just asked him).

It's not normally something I'd worry about.

I might go, "Wait--you believe what now?" And if they persist saying whatever it is that caused me to react like that, I'd just go "ohhhhkay."

No need to worry about whether they really believe it, really.

It's not normally something I'd worry about.

I might go, "Wait--you believe what now?" And if they persist saying whatever it is that caused me to react like that, I'd just go "ohhhhkay."

No need to worry about whether they really believe it, really. — Terrapin Station

But the question is whether or not they're lying, and whether or not you can tell, not whether or not you're worried about it. Most of the time I'm not worried about climate change or cancer, but I'm not on the fence about whether or not they're real.

Maybe we here can start small. There are liars and trolls here. I propose that within an informal system of warnings, that recalcitrant offenders be banned. How do we recognize the lie? By its signs of evasion, avoidance, non-responsiveness, persistence, misdirection, confusion making, deliberate misstatement, & etc. This is a philosophy site: love of wisdom: willingness to learn and be corrected, and on the other side to be clear, patient, and an educator. And in the case of argument, to be clear, direct, and to the point. That is, not a sophistry site, nor a liar's nor a troll's site. They poison our place. Usually there is room for the liar, one can distance oneself from them. But the world has got small; they make themselves and their lies and purposes our business, even in those cases when the assure us the matter is "none" of our business. Ultimately it's them or us. Let's make it us — tim wood

I get annoyed at people who disrupt the forum. Lying though? What is there to lie about here? We're anonymous. We don't really deal in facts so much as opinions. How can an opinion be a lie? Trolling? I've been accused of trolling when expressing a sincere disagreement. As good philosophers, let's define it. From the web:

• A person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post.
• A person who antagonizes (others) online by deliberately posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content.
• Someone that starts arguments or upsets people by posting off-topic or extraneous messages....Their goal is to cause people to get emotional and to harass people online.

Those seem like pretty good definitions to me. The emphasis is on disruption. Stopping the rest of us from having fun.

So what do we do about it...drum roll....nothing. Or at least nothing much. This is a well moderated forum. The moderators usually get crap when they delete posts or ban people. I think they walk a good line between rigid control and chaos.

Tim - how exactly do you propose to crack down? I get the impression this thread is in response to recent activities on the forum. I do see above average barking and hissing going around right now. Most of that seems to me to come from lack of discipline, courtesy, and familiarity with the forum rather than an effort to disrupt.

So what do we do about it...drum roll....nothing. Or at least nothing much. — T Clark

Just hang 'em, then.

But the question is whether or not they're lying, and whether or not you can tell, not whether or not you're worried about it. Most of the time I'm not worried about climate change or cancer, but I'm not on the fence about whether or not they're real. — S

I'm not on the fence about whether people can lie. Just whether we can tell that a particular person is lying . . . not that it matters much to me that we can't tell, as I noted.

I'm not on the fence about whether people can lie. Just whether we can tell that a particular person is lying . . . not that it matters much to me that we can't tell, as I noted. — Terrapin Station

But there are some clear enough cases where we can tell. You're just setting the bar unreasonably high, as usual. And I don't think that it's intellectually honest of you to take the stance that you can't tell in at least some cases, like my example earlier. You know I'm not crazy enough to believe that.

What are you doing on the moon with that fuckwit?

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That was a great read. Thank you.

But I fear Truth is no motivating factor in your plea for censorship. If you resort to censorship you cast doubt on Truth itself by replacing it’s force with suppression. Truth doesn’t require protection, especially by those who believe they lay claim to it. Think of Milton’s famous insight:

“Though all winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple, who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter.”

JS Mill makes it more explicit:

“The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.”

I see nothing wrong with the banning of ill behavior. As for these so-called lies, I’m pretty sure fellow posters are far enough into adulthood to figure that out for themselves.

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What are you doing on the moon with that fuckwit? — Janus

Last minute replacement. I was supposed to be meeting Professor Brian Cox, but instead I got Chevy Chase. You can imagine my disappointment.

That was a great read. Thank you. — NOS4A2

Aha! Now I know you must be lying. Caught you red handed.

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At the heart of the matter is who shall hold the field. Reason, or attempts at same? Or rant and destructive behaviour? Of course our issues aren't even storms in teapot - maybe a thimble! But even at small scale the issues are real, nor is there anything about this site that in itself argues a suspension of rules of civil discourse. — tim wood

I think I know exactly how you feel. I don't want you to think I don't share your values. I know the feeling of standing on solid intellectual ground, with my feet under me, nice wide stance in front of someone else who stands the same. Both trying to work out the things that are important to us working with the other person. Ideas against ideas maybe, but not poster against poster. I like the people on this forum and I don't want to waste my time pissing on each others shoes. I don't want to distract from their voices.

As you can maybe see, I am skeptical that group action beyond that already provided by the moderators is the right way to go, but I think there may be individual things I can do to make things better. Some ideas:

I try to make sure I am not contributing to the problem. Make sure my posts are reasonably civil and respectful and not disruptive. Don’t call anybody a dick, no matter how much they deserve it. Make sure I try to stay on the subject as described in the OP. Respond to people when they comment on the things I’ve had to say. Try not to go too far off on a tangent. Never, never respond to anything @S has to say. I try to stay away from people I don’t get along with. I have had some success with all this, but I have a ways to go.

The best way to have some control over the course of the forum is to start high-quality threads and shepherd them through the process. No half-assed off the cuff dipsy-doodle themes. We’re supposed to be philosophers. Pick something you understand, know something about, and have thought about extensively. Don’t piss out thread after thread of meaningless bull shit. Describe the terms and goals of the OP clearly. Define terms. Describe what you want to include in the thread and specifically what you don’t want to include. During the discussion, protect the OP by letting people know when they are getting off track or being disruptive or heading off on a tangent. If you have to, go to the moderators. You have standing with your own threads, this is where you can make a difference.

Try to do similar things in your posts in other’s threads. They’re the boss. Stick with their Ops. Try to contribute if you can, not find fault. Again – make your point clearly, tie it into their posts, define terms. Support the original poster when people try to hijack their thread. Try not to go off on tangents. If you find yourself doing that, shift to a PM. If you don’t have anything substantive and relevant to add to the main thrust of the thread, go somewhere else.

In a limited way, take a little social control into your own hands. Politely point out to people when they are off-base without disrupting the discussion. Do it as a PM to avoid disruption if it makes sense. In other people’s threads, the original poster gets the final word.

Support the moderators. I try to be really careful about this – enlist their support. They are all hammers and we tend to look like nails to them, so don’t be heavy handed. Only bring them in if it’s important. Be fair.

For me, these are goals. I often fail to live up to my own standards. I'll keep trying.

For me, these are goals. I often fail to live up to my own standards. I'll keep trying. — T Clark

Indeed. You just can't resist responding to my little pearls of aggression on occasion.

But in all seriousness, that was mostly good advice. Except for the part about finding fault. That's exactly what you should be doing. The less faults, the stronger the end product. The sooner they're identified, the sooner they can be addressed.

Your advice is a lot more detailed, but less punchy than what I would have said, which would be to get over it and move on.

I don't think that. Even if the person doesn't have a history of saying things that are crazy, they could believe something crazy now. — Terrapin Station

Of course they could, but the sun 'could' explode in the next three seconds, we 'could' all suddenly lose the ability to read... But we don't act as if that were the case. We act with a presumption of expected result based on our theories. We presume consistent patterns will continue to be so until overwhelmingly contradicted by evidence to the contrary. So why shouldn't we treat plausible beliefs in the same way?

Oh and @S, if you're on the moon with Chevy Chase, then who the fuck is this I'm on Mars with?

So what do we do about it...drum roll....nothing. Or at least nothing much. This is a well moderated forum. The moderators usually get crap when they delete posts or ban people. I think they walk a good line between rigid control and chaos. — T Clark

:up: Our mods seem to do a good job. Thanks to them! :up:

So what do we do about it...drum roll....nothing. Or at least nothing much. This is a well moderated forum. The moderators usually get crap when they delete posts or ban people. I think they walk a good line between rigid control and chaos.
— T Clark

:up: Our mods seem to do a good job. Thanks to them! :up: — Pattern-chaser

Agreed.
If things get out of hand, the mods are accessible and can give an objective perspective via PM conversation. I have had a few helpful exchanges with @Baden

The problem often lies in our becoming too subjectively and personally upset with an individual.
It can be emotionally exhausting with anger often leading to an escalation with knee-jerk, sweary responses. It's important to gain perspective, control the anger and not to get too sucked in, as per:

I try to make sure I am not contributing to the problem. Make sure my posts are reasonably civil and respectful and not disruptive. Don’t call anybody a dick, no matter how much they deserve it. Make sure I try to stay on the subject as described in the OP. — T Clark

After making your point or objection as to any misrepresentation, walk away. As per:

get over it and move on. — S

Chasing and harassing - ask yourself if it's worthy or worth it.

Follow your own philosophy of life. If too rigid and absolute, this can lead to stress, hypertension and bloody noses.