Heh, I certainly have.

I only care about what's practical, I think most of the times I've argued with you, you admit that you're being unrealistic and impractical but stand by your position anyway and I think you'll end up doing that again if we continue to debate this. I haven't read any of your posts besides those directed at me, maybe you've been saying very sensible and reasonable things, don't know but I haven't thought of any sensible disagreements to what I'm saying.

All I know about trolling is that I've done it before and I'll do it again - I get something out of it.

The word "responsibilties" holds a certain importance to me, so when a forum that I barely visit and consider entirely dispensible has rules that I haven't even read, I am unhappy about saying I have a responsibility to abide those rules. There are consequences for not abiding by them, that's what I'd prefer to say.


Sure, it's a personal philosophy. My values, my thoughts, my personality - they can't be separated from me. My personal philosophies are right because they're right for me. If my values and preferences changed, the philosophies that were true because of them or good because of them will lose their value. And to people who never had my values or preferences, there may not have ever been any value. I only expect the same out of others, I only object in cases like these where you'll agree that your actions lead to outcomes you don't like, I think it's clear then that your way is not working.

My values, my thoughts, my personality - they can't be separated from me. My personal philosophies are right because they're right for me. — Judaka

It leaves the question, can you distinguish between the world and yourself? Right-for-you because right for you is a whole different animal from "right because right for me."

in cases like these where you'll agree that your actions lead to outcomes you don't like, I think it's clear then that your way is not working. — Judaka

This is the kind of obvious that I think most folks sometimes overlook. It's good to be reminded of it.

Maybe the troll isn’t so much “poisoning the well” as he is “corrupting the youth” with his lies and heresies. Wouldn’t that be a better analogy?

Maybe the troll isn’t so much “poisoning the well” as he is “corrupting the youth” with his lies and heresies. Wouldn’t that be a better analogy? — NOS4A2

E.g., Putin, Trump, NOS4A2: Socrates1, Socrates2, Sorates3. Is that what you had in mind?

More the Athenian aristocracy. I look at the censorial motivations and fear of unpopular opinions and see a parallel.

Can we lose the pretence? Who are you guys talking about? S, Terrapin or that other NOS4A2 guy? Someone else?
To the general topic, banning for trolling needs to be handled very carefully. It is the go to internet accusation. On this very forum I have observed (often tbh) two, equally reasonable posters become frustrated and conclude that the other “must be trolling”. I have made the charge myself. I do not want any of those people banned.
Trolls will go away if ignored, but I think this forum has acceptable guidelines in place already. Id even say its a bit heavy handed at times, but then again I dont have the unenvious position of having to sort and judge it all.

The word "responsibilties" holds a certain importance to me, so when a forum that I barely visit and consider entirely dispensible has rules that I haven't even read, I am unhappy about saying I have a responsibility to abide those rules. There are consequences for not abiding by them, that's what I'd prefer to say. — Judaka

This forum means a lot to many of us. It's clear it doesn't to you. If you feel the need to throw your weight around without following the rules or being courteous, why don't you just go somewhere else?

But please assist me: which one do you have in mind?
— tim wood
Request denied. — Amity

I replied to further PM request from Tim.
The answer was in a previous response, easy enough to find :

[As I read the above, implicit is that everyone is operating within the bounds of good faith]
The question was, what to do about them what don't. The answer seems to be, nothing.
— tim wood

Not true. — Amity

I'm still here so I can't have disobeyed the rules too badly. The forum is not mine, I cannot say what it is but what it is to me is still intact. It doesn't matter to me whether people want or don't want me to be here.


I know that I am just one perspective in a sea of billions and my perspective is only important to me because I am me. That's enough though - and I don't answer to some kind of transcendent idea of right and wrong. There is no "right because right for me" because that is a claim about the transcendent. A person's interpretations are subjective but they've real consequences and real validity. The idea of right and wrong as a transcendent thing is removed from reality, it isn't something that affects me.

It is a battle for power I think, the never-ending debate about what is right and wrong. I can see that I'm different from others in ways that I never decided to be. So it is also not a choice for others to be like me, futile for me to argue it should be like that. What I should do is up to me and I'm left to react to the actions of others. I'm not oblivious towards that for example, I'll be banned from this forum if I'm caught violating the rules. Knowing that and things like that, I make my choices.

He said himself in the sentences before what you quoted that site management is very-good to exemplary, which he agrees with. So if it's not an issue for site staff, then what does he expect to be done, that he cannot do by himself? I don't like the sound of that. Trying to gang up on someone? Just try to exercise greater self-control, I say. I agree with Judaka.

It is a battle for power I think, the never-ending debate about what is right and wrong. — Judaka

This whole thing is a battle for power. Tim wants power over NOS4A2, who he has decided is a liar and a troll, and this is his power play. I'm guessing he wants him banned or ostracised. I say leave it up to the site staff and stop making such a public show of things.

So just to clarify, in this thread, people are actually claiming at least one of the following:

(1) If people typically believe that P (or maybe iff the vast majority of people typically believe that P), then we have good grounds for concluding that someone asserting not-P must be lying,

(2) If S (some subject) has a history of asserting that P, then we have good grounds for concluding that S is lying if S asserts not-P.

(3) If S claims that Q where Q is a very unusual, highly implausible assertion relative to what most people assert, and/or relative to what S has asserted in the past, then we have good grounds for concluding that S is lying.

Good points.
But I have said enough and now beyond the point of caring.

This is a philosophy site: love of wisdom: willingness to learn and be corrected, and on the other side to be clear, patient, and an educator. And in the case of argument, to be clear, direct, and to the point. — tim wood

I think we need to examine why it is that so many people are terrified of learning about themselves and being corrected. Here's a snippet of what I researched about trolls:

"I began doing some troll research in online journals such as Journal of Politeness Research, Computers in Human Behavior, The Psychology of Cyberspace, Journal of Computer-Mediated Communication, and Psychology Today. I was amazed to discover how much current work is being done on the psychodynamics of online communication and relationships. I learned that when online anonymity is guaranteed, some people feel free to be cruel. They don't just disagree with others; they're cruel. It's called toxic disinhibition when online commenters insult or bully others, or otherwise behave in ways they would not if their identity were known (Suler). Anonymous commenters are significantly more likely to make vulgar or nasty comments (Suler). This is why many news outlets and other sites only allow comments on FB, where people can't hide behind anonymity.
I also learned that trolling can be contagious and can spread from person to person in a community (Cheng). It can alter forum members' perceptions of a given topic (Anderson). Social scientists have been studying mass psychology since the nineteenth century to understand how the presence of a calculating "agitator" can transform a group of rational people into a violent and destructive mob (Adorno). Of course, things are a little different in cyber space, but the agitators are there as well.
Trolls are unhappy people with deep-seated insecurities which they can't acknowledge to themselves. We all experiences unhappiness and insecurity: they're part of the human condition. But to inflict suffering on and cause harm to others is the most unhealthy way of avoiding or denying our own personal problems. Inflicting harm on others is guaranteed to make an emotionally-disturbed person worse; trolling hurts the troll worst of all. Because trolls won't face their inner demons, they behave hatefully to others in an attempt to ward off feelings of self-loathing."

What was most productive about the research I did was my own process of coming to terms with why I have sunk to the same level a few times online--not too many times, but I reacted as described above when I got trolled and wrote nasty stuff right back. It never ceases to amaze me how hard it is, even at times for self-reflexive and self-questioning intellectuals not to jump to the defensive and turn agressive.

I do agree that any trolling or impoliteness should be pointed out, and people online shouldn't be afraid to apologize if they write things they regret later.

Do you ever step back and think to yourself: "Perhaps I'm overcomplicating things?".

I learned that when online anonymity is guaranteed, some people feel free to be cruel. They don't just disagree with others; they're cruel. It's called toxic disinhibition when online commenters insult or bully others, or otherwise behave in ways they would not if their identity were known (Suler). — uncanni

I'm actually exactly the same way in person as I am online . . . which I'd be happy to demonstrate to anyone via a telephone conversation or an in-person meeting if you even happen to be in the NYC area (when I'm home and not traveling).

If you're not claiming at least one of those three things, you could clarify just what your justification would be for accusing someone of lying when they assert whatever they're asserting.

I'm less interested in that and more interested in your answer to my question. Do you not think that you're overcomplicating things when you go to such lengths, and can't even accept that I was lying when I said that I was on the moon? Is that not an indication that you've gone drastically wrong somewhere, and need to reassess the matter?

Do you not think that you're overcomplicating things when you go to such lengths — S

Probably not, right? Or I wouldn't do things that way I do them. I probably do things the way that I do them because I think it's a good way to do them/I like it, etc. Unless you think that I don't like what I'm doing/the way I'm doing it and I just can't figure out how to do things differently.

Probably not, right? Or I wouldn't do things that way I do them. I probably do things the way that I do them because I think it's a good way to do them/I like it, etc. Unless you think that I don't like what I'm doing/the way I'm doing it and I just can't figure out how to do things differently. — Terrapin Station

Oh no, that's the answer I was expecting. I'm just testing your self-awareness.

Sometimes I'll troll people just because I don't like them. Trolling to me is a course of action that follows feeling no respect towards someone, thinking either they or their ideas are absurd. From my perspective, if you're being trolled by me, you deserved it for saying idiotic things. — Judaka

You're saying that you troll because you believe it's ok to be mean to people you don't like and who you think are stupid idiots? Do you have an ethical system, and is this part of it? That those who consider themselves superior should belittle those they consider inferior?

I'm sincerely wondering why you believe it's ok to be rude and nasty to those you consider your inferiors. Behavior learned at home?

I'm actually exactly the same way in person as I am online . — Terrapin Station

But lots of people aren't: they do that Jeckyll and Hyde thing and only let their nastiness/cruelty come out in certain contexts.

You're saying that you troll because you believe it's ok to be mean to people you don't like and who you think are stupid idiots? Do you have an ethical system, and is this part of it? That those who consider themselves superior should belittle those they consider inferior?

I'm sincerely wondering why you believe it's ok to be rude and nasty to those you consider your inferiors. Behavior learned at home? — uncanni

Let's be honest, because it's fun. We're all old enough not to take it to heart, and if you do, then more fool you.

You don't hang out with people who say "You're being an idiot" if they feel you're being an idiot?

No one would ever dare to call me an idiot.

And there's a huge difference between a comrade saying that and someone saying really nasty things to me online or to my face.

Since this is a thread about lying/honesty, I see people not expressing just what they're thinking, including when they try to "tactfully" temper or spin what they're thinking, as dishonest.

I prefer hanging out with people who are honest/unfettered.

No one would ever dare to call me an idiot. — uncanni

You need some new friends.

Definitely some people you know are going to think you're an idiot sometimes. If they don't tell you that, they're not being honest with you.

Since this is a thread about lying/honesty, I see people not expressing just what they're thinking, including when they try to "tactfully" temper or spin what they're thinking, as dishonest.

I prefer hanging out with people who are honest/unfettered. — Terrapin Station

Well I'm blunt, and you're an idiot, so we're a match made in heaven.

Well I'm blunt, and you're an idiot, so we're a match made in heaven. — S

Right. Of course I return the favor. ;-)

Let's be honest, because it's fun. We're all old enough not to take it to heart, and if you do, then more fool you. — S

You find being mean to people fun? Are we talking about the same thing? I'm beginning to think we aren't.

Being "mean" to people is honest, if that's what someone is thinking.

I like people who are honest and expressive.