Nietzsche at least, wasn't anxious about death per se: he was anxious about deaths that did not sanctify life:

"Many die too late, and a few die too early. The doctrine still sounds strange: "Die at the right time!" Die at the right time - thus teaches Zarathustra. ... Everybody considers dying important; but as yet death is no festival. As yet men have not learned how one hallows the most beautiful festivals I show you the death that consummates - a spur and a promise to the survivors. He that consummates his life dies his death victoriously, surrounded by those who hope and promise. Thus should one learn to die; and there should be no festival where one dying thus does not hallow the oaths of the living. ... In your dying, your spirit and virtue should still glow like a sunset around the earth: else your dying has turned out badly." (Z, "On Free Death")

And perhaps you'd like Spinoza's sunny disposition, for whom "‘the free man thinks of death least of all things, and his wisdom is a meditation on life, not on death" (Ethics).

[...] The doctrine still sounds strange: "Die at the right time!" [...] ... In your dying, your spirit and virtue should still glow like a sunset around the earth: else your dying has turned out badly." (Z, "On Free Death") — StreetlightX

Beautiful quote. :up:

Mixing in what I take from some Native American thought - as in "It's a good day to die": If every moment of one's life could be lived so that one would be at least sincerely content to pass away naturally (be this in a battle for virtue or not), than one will have lived one's life to the fullest ... regardless of how long one lives. But Nietzsche's expression definitely outshines mine - and, oddly, is far clearer.

What parts of Plato are you referring to?

Wittgenstein was wrong, I think. Imagine buying a book about Wittgenstein's life and finding that it said nothing whatsoever about his death. You'd be perplexed, surely?

Plus it is clear to the reason of virtually everyone that we have reason - powerful reason - to avoid dying under most circumstances.

That it implies it is harmful. After all, that's why we consider it one of the harshest punishments it is possible to give someone. It would not be a punishment unless it harmed the person it was inflicted on.

So death is a harm, or at least it is a harm under most circumstances.

But it is hard to see how it could be a harm if it is not an event in our lives. For surely to be harmed by an event it must have some impact on my life. But it could not impact my life if it occurs after it. So it must occur in it, then.

Speaking of Plato, he was pretty chill with death too in fact, but for reasons almost diametrically opposite to Nietzsche. Thus, in one of the worst texts ever written in the history of philosophy, you can read this:

"Those who practice philosophy in the right way are in training for dying and they fear death least of all men. Consider it from this point of view: if they are altogether estranged from the body and desire to have their soul by itself, would it not be quite absurd for them to be afraid and resentful when this happens? If they did not gladly set out for a place, where, on arrival, they may hope to attain that for which they had yearned during their lifetime, that is, wisdom, and where they would be rid of the presence of that from which they are estranged?

...Will then a true lover of wisdom, who has a similar hope and knows that he will never find it to any extent except in Hades, be resentful of dying and not gladly undertake the journey thither? One must surely think so, my friend, if he is a true philosopher, for he is firmly convinced that he will not find pure knowledge anywhere except there. And if this is so, then, as I said just now, would it not be highly unreasonable for such a man to fear death? / It certainly would, by Zeus, [Simmias] said." (Phaedo)

Speaking of Plato, he was pretty chill with death... — StreetlightX

One might be tempted to point out that what he was cool with isn't really death. It isn't personal annihilation. If he didn't believe in a soul of some sort, with his subjectivity situated safely there, surviving the death of the body, would he still have been so chill with death?

I don't want to start a new topic; but, can someone lay out the reasoning behind claiming that death is not an event in one's life?

Epicurus:

"Why should I fear death?
If I am, then death is not.
If Death is, then I am not."


In other words, you never experience being dead.

But, as Heidegger pointed out, we are aware of our inevitable deaths. Our possibility of not-being is always present. I suspect Epicurus and Wittgenstein are both just trying to hard to comfort themselves. Their comments surely are motivated by death anxiety.

Where is this holy shit neurosis coming from? — Wallows

The origin of neurosis is The Fall into time. Adamn monkey falls not into knowledge of good and evil as in 'bananas are good', but as 'I am good', 'bananas will be be good for good monkeys', 'death is not good', bananas are not good for dead monkeys, dead monkeys are not good 'I will be dead.'

W. says 'no you won't.' Are you convinced? Dead monkeys are not monkeys... dead men wallow not.

Here's two ways to look at it.

It's not an event in your life, as you're not living - life ends where death begins.
It is an event in your life, but as you're not present for it, it is not an event for you; hence doesn't matter.

I don't want to start a new topic; but, can someone lay out the reasoning behind claiming that death is not an event in one's life? — Wallows

I think dying is the event, and when it's over...

I think fear of death is two-pronged: we fear the the suffering; the pain and humiliation that we imagine might precede death, and we fear annihilation. The former shows that, although death may not be an event in our lives, dying will be. I think annihilation is feared because it is uncanny; we just cannot make sense of it such as to be able to give it more than a lip service acknowledgement.Or contra the idea of annihilation, perhaps it is thought, irrationally, unawares, that I will be trapped, helpless, impotent, dead; undead somehow alone in the void forever.

Have you read Ernest Becker the The Denial of Death?

I don't know if this is addressed to me, but I did read that book about 25 years ago, so I can't remember too much about it.

I just did above. Death is a harm. If something harms a person, then it harms them in their life. Therefore death is an event in a person's life.

The chain is forged that links a thousand deaths
To a thousand future-generated breaths
When lips ripe as fruit gently part in pain:
The smile of a corpse is life touched by death.

I don't know if this is addressed to me, but I did read that book about 25 years ago, so I can't remember too much about it.

I wasn't addressing anyone in particular, just thought this book might be relevant to some of the OPs initial queries. It's a really great (and largely unheard of) book when understanding death anxiety and its effects and purpose.

Perhaps I should give it another read. :smile:

I read it many years ago, too. Good existential kind of reading, as I recall. But I'm a lot older now and I believe my attitudes and feelings have changed a lot. In some ways it becomes an attractive proposition in terms of how bad it gets on this planet...

death is the most common theme of any singular subject to be found in any spiritual text.

WHAT THE FUCK? Where is this holy shit neurosis coming from? — Wallows

You're right but have inadvertently attributed it to neurosis. I know religion is mostly about some variation on the eternal life theme but Buddhism stands apart from the rest in having a non/less neurotic take on the matter. Death is the quintessence of impermanence - the realization of an undeniable truth about how the world works. It encourages you to contemplate on it in a rational manner and live life in the best way you can. May be you shouldn't steal that wallet or be rude to your neighbor or do something immoral because you don't take anything with you when you take your last breath and let the other person enjoy his/her life before s/he too must enter the door to the great unknown.

Just an opinion.

Also I like the way people say RIP - Rest in PEACE.

Please note: There are certain situations where some "things" are, sad to say, "more" important than life. That's the beginnings of a tragedy

Also I like the way people say RIP - Rest in PEACE. — TheMadFool

Good bye. Fare well.

It's more like if you steal that wallet it won't be you who enjoys the fruits of that theft. Death is not the quintessense of impermanence, there is no death in Buddism, since there is nothing to die.