Many immoral thinkers have. Gays and women have been targets for the immoral who do not like the notion of equality for many years. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Long-term survival is the overriding concern here. Few people would deny that the religious communities are at a very visible advantage on that matter. For everybody else, long-term survival is increasingly turning into an futile exercise in squaring the circle. In other words, you have to solve your own problems first before trying to advise anybody else.

In other words, you have to solve your own problems first before trying to advise anybody else. — alcontali

This is relevant to me! Thanks.

I actually think it's good practical advice. I can't lift the Earth but I sure can wash off the dust in my eye.

What about leaders? Every global movement is headed by someone. Could we tell him/her to set his/her house in order before attempting to lead the flock? Nobody's perfect I guess.

Thanks.

slave-dealing — tim wood

Slave dealing was not a problem for the Jewish authorities until some point which I can't identify, just now. Slavery was during some OT periods was quite common.

what do I think of religions that push fear and hatred? I think they're ignorant and stupid. — tim wood

Your phrasing has come out of my mouth on a number of occasions, but I am not sure the problem is ignorance and stupidity. The targets for hate are many and varied, and most of us are capable of hating people who, to our minds, are really loathsome, but who, to themselves, are perfectly lovable and decent folk.

One of the big problems of Christians & Moslems is the idea that people who violate the holiness code are spectacularly evil. Therefore, Jews, homosexuals, apostates, heretics, adulterous women, and so on have been the objects of focused hatred and violence. But to repeat, "homophobia" doesn't fit these situations.

People don't hate Jews because they fear they are Jews. The self-righteous religious haters usually do not think they are deep down, homosexuals. Or apostates, heretics, adulterous women, and more. Hatred has other sources than what drives the properly diagnosed homophobe (which is the fear he is queer). People who hate blacks usually have some picture of the uppity Negro who is violating the proper order of things: he or she is not being submissive. NO, he and she are out there integrating the schools, the pool, the shopping center, and the neighborhood; marching, yelling, getting the federal government involved, and... and... there goes our way of life!!!

People sometimes hate the people over whom they have absolute power. It's not a phobia, it's a more complicated reaction.

You application of 'societal function' to 'self' tends to be circular from the pov of 'self' as a social acquisition, constructed by a value laden communal language.
I can't make sense of your 'dimensions' analogy. Maybe you could rehash what you are saying in terms of 'nested domains' ....e.g. personal, group, societal, national etc ...in which different rule mechanisms operate ?

What about leaders? Every global movement is headed by someone. Could we tell him/her to set his/her house in order before attempting to lead the flock? Nobody's perfect I guess. — TheMadFool

Well, after negotiating with the Taliban for over a year in Doha, Qatar -- the deal was finally going to be announced this week -- the Donald still managed to flake out last minute.

He had first said that he was going to do it, before backpedalling and not doing it, because hey, "I have changed my mind and I am not going to do it!".

To tell you the truth, I knew that he was going to do something like that.

The Donald never really liked the idea of making a deal, but he wanted to do the negotiations because there is nothing to lose by merely sitting at the negotiation table. Still, when push came to shove, I knew that he was going to bail out, because that was the plan from the very start; and now he did.

:ok:

To all.
This is NOT a thread aimed at tackling 'the problem' laid at the doors of traditional religions, other than by promoting of 'gnosticism' as the 'most enlightened' alternative religion. The fact that the mythology of gnosticism also involves a male (wise) female (fallen) dichotomy albeit at the 'spiritual level' rather than a 'bodily level' implies that their claims for moral superiority are dubious.

To all.
This is NOT a thread aimed at tackling 'the problem' laid at the doors of traditional religions, other than by promoting of 'gnosticism' as the 'most enlightened' alternative religion. The fact that the mythology of gnosticism also involves a male (wise) female (fallen) dichotomy albeit at the 'spiritual level' rather than a 'bodily level' implies that their claims for moral superiority are dubious. — fresco

:smile: :up:

You application of 'societal function' to 'self' tends to be circular from the pov of 'self' as a social acquisition, constructed by a value laden communal language. — fresco

The way I see it, awareness of ‘self’ as a subject and source of value preceded the language, and contributed to its development as a system for structuring value. This appears evident from a distinct lack of ‘communal’ language, despite the translatability of ‘I’ across human experience.

I can't make sense of your 'dimensions' analogy. Maybe you could rehash what you are saying in terms of 'nested domains' ....e.g. personal, group, societal, national etc ...in which different rule mechanisms operate ? — fresco

Nested domains are inaccurate as a structure for value systems, because some people will attribute more value or significance to their national identity than their personal one, or vice versa, for example.

Value systems are a five-dimensional structure: they relate subjective experiences to each other and to events and objects in time not necessarily according to spatial or temporal structure, but according to hierarchies of significance.

So one’s subjective value structure develops from their most significant or valuable relationship interactions. This can sometimes appear as ‘nested domains’ when viewed logically, but in the midst of an emotional interaction, for instance, this apparently rational structure in theory can go out the window in practice.

Religions, like most societies, make use of significant and valuable relationships to try and homogenise this value structure, but as numbers grow and diversity in experiencing spacetime events and objects threatens homogeneity, the social ‘entity’ protects itself by creating or manifesting some sense of continuity in experience to unite observers and minimise change across spacetime.

Tradition, ritual, symbolism, mythology, language, art and written texts are all attempts to ‘realise’ a more universal value structure. Four dimensional structures such as rituals and spoken language, as events recurring in time, lend themselves to a certain amount of fluidity. Two dimensional, written declarations from significant ‘authority’ are less flexible. They’re more effective in terms of reach, but decidedly less effective in terms of an accurate account of the value structure as it pertains to three or four dimensional reality.

Sorry, it’s a tricky concept - is that any clearer... or less so?

That's just normal human behavior. — Bitter Crank

Informative post. Thanks.

There is no normal that says that one should discriminate without a just cause.

Normal, especially in religions, seem to change on the whim of whoever is in charge at any given point in time. Check this out.

http://christianity-revealed.com/cr/files/whensamesexmarriagewasachristianrite.html

As to your family, ask the men if they like that their church says they must marry second class citizens.

Tell the men in the churches you know, that do not put women and children above themselves, that they are inferior men.

Regards
DL

If by 'dimensions' you mean 'independent (orthogonal) factors', as in 'factor analysis', then that might make sense. However, whether you concur on that or not, I suggest you need to take care, for example, with your analysis of 'text' as '2-dimensional', because contrary to the religious viewpoint (set in stone), post modernists claim that text shifts its 'meaning' over time, even for its author.

I suggest gnostics want their cake (belief in a supremo aka 'God') — fresco

Your suggestion is foolish as we show our disrespect for supernatural stupid thinking and Christianity by insulting Yahweh, a genocidal prick, demiurge that is, whom you, like Christians, seem to think is worthy and good.

All the gods come out of human imagination and mine just happens to have morals and is supreme to me.

I hope whatever ideal example you follow, that is god to most, in laws and rules, is so as well.

Best to ask a Gnostic Christian what he believes as the inquisitors put a lot of lies out here to try to justify their many murders.

Regards
DL

Many Christians have difficulty with embodiment -- including their own. Some seem to want to be above the physical, somehow being etherial disembodied beings. — Bitter Crank

They forget that the most Christian nation in the world, the U.S apparently, --- if not a U.S. joke, --- has the highest abortion rates in the world as well as the highest sexually transmitted diseases stats going.

It seems that Christian nations have a hard time walking their talk.

Regards
DL

Another thread that has a definition problem — tim wood

In philosophical discussions, it is well known by the intelligential, that definitions happen at the end of a general discussion and not before as people will not agree on firm definitions.

If you cannot think analogically you might want to get oyt of philosophy forums.

I am not inventing new definitions and if you cannot use dictionary definitions, go argue definitions with someone else. I am here to talk issues.

Regards
DL

Get the picture? — Bitter Crank

Thanks for having more patience than I.

I just tell such to do their own research as when I supply mine, Christians especially just discard them due to the source.

They deflect by attacking the messenger and ignore the message.

Regards
DL

nebulous value system — Possibility

Nicely put.

Regards
DL

This is very very sad particularly when you hear or read reports about gay people committing suicide. To say the very least, the right-wing Fundies should be ashamed of themselves.

The level of ignorance is baffling. When did the Bible become a 21st century medical science book... — 3017amen

Shame is what they should feel, but that would displace the contempt they prefer to feel without a just cause.

"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God, holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God, there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature; he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.
Believing himself to be the slave of God, he imitates his master, and of all tyrants, the worst is a slave in power."
--Robert Ingersoll

A mythical rose, by any other name, would smell just as phoney to atheists ! ...Indeed, in terms of Shakespeare milking....'A plague on all their fairy tale houses' !

But I suppose we are doomed to continue to suffer your futile trolling which has no more substance than its turgid 'anti-yahweh' moaning.

And insofar as they act on those bases, ought to be subject to corrective action, probably through criminal and civil law, as appropriate. — tim wood

I have suggested a governmental revue of the religions to decide which is more moral and to help guide the population. That would help show the garbage religions. Scientology comes to mind.

To do less, is to ignore fraud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

My taxes, --- and yours, --- keep those G D liars in business and I don't like my money being used for evil.

Regards
DL

I think the root of the problem has more to do with the male psychology than God per se. — TheMadFool

A good post.

It is all psychology for sure. Not the sexual part of it. The peer pressure and desire for tribal security is. All a religion is is a tribe.

That is pure self-centered selfish behavior which profits the immoral church to grow.

Here is a quick look at our hivish tribal natures that religions have used to divide us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

In other words, you have to solve your own problems first before trying to advise anybody else. — alcontali

Did you have something specific in mind?

I don't think I agree at all with your view as I have known doctors addicted to drugs who are quite good at helping others in ridding themselves of their addictions.

Sure, every psychologist may need their own psychologist but that does not mean that they cannot be effective psychologists.

Open your closed mind a bit and think of idiot savants.

Regards
DL

Did you have something specific in mind? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Societies who in all practical terms are no longer making children are at a distinct disadvantage in spreading the very ideas that cause their problem. Why would anybody else believe a word they say? Seriously, that is what explains why they don't. There is little need for further analysis because these things are getting increasingly obvious. Just look around you, and then confirm that the mess will not be fixed any time soon, if ever.

The fact that the mythology of gnosticism also involves a male (wise) female (fallen) dichotomy albeit at the 'spiritual level' rather than a 'bodily level' implies that their claims for moral superiority are dubious. — fresco

LOL.

Again you speak out of ignorance of Gnostic Christianity.

Gnostic Christians are universalists and have tied equality to righteousness.

This following needs an update in terms but shows that equality under the law for all us is paramount.

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

Further, modern male Gnostic Christians take it further by applying the law of the sea where women and children and their needs are always put above us men, where we men think they should be.

Regards
DL

— TheMadFool

Please read my reply to our friend and repent for your reaction to B.S.

Regards
DL

Societies who in all practical terms are no longer making children are at a distinct disadvantage in spreading the very ideas that cause their problem. Why would anybody else believe a word they say? Seriously, that is what explains why they don't. There is little need for further analysis because these things are getting increasingly obvious. Just look around you, and then confirm that the mess will not be fixed any time soon, if ever. — alcontali

I do not measure the worth of an ideology on whether the speaker has children or not. Noye how prolific Muslims are yet they presently have the most immoral ideology on the planet.

If I were to give credence to your words, then all Buddhist monks should all be ignored.

Regards
DL

If by 'dimensions' you mean 'independent (orthogonal) factors', as in 'factor analysis', then that might make sense. — fresco

From what little I understand about factor analysis, I would say no. By dimensions, I do mean dimensions. But then, I’ll admit that my ability to grasp mathematics is limited. So you might have to explain what you mean in plain English.

However, whether you concur on that or not, I suggest you need to take care, for example, with your analysis of 'text' as '2-dimensional', because contrary to the religious viewpoint (set in stone), post modernists claim that text shifts its 'meaning' over time, even for its author. — fresco

If you read it again, I did say the written ‘word’ or ‘declaration’ (not text) is 2-dimensional - as in, it has a fixed relative shape on a plane. The words, once written, don’t change. Meaning, on the other hand, can be up to six dimensional. This is why I said that one of the options was to:

- continually re-interpret the words in relation to the subjective experiences. — Possibility

Note how prolific Muslims are ... — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yeah, they do not believe it, and they have lots of kids.
Everybody who believes it, does not.
So, let's conclude that not believing it, is a prerequisite for successful sexual reproduction.

Thanks for the link. :up:

So, let's conclude that not believing it, is a prerequisite for successful sexual reproduction. — alcontali

Reproduction decision usually have more than one issue, so no, I do not agree.

Further, most theists are not really believers in their religions and are just following tradition, culture and peer pressure.

A Muslim in the M. E, will likely have more children than a U.S. Muslim.

Regards
DL

Thanks for the link. :up: — TheMadFool

My pleasure buddy.

Regards
DL