FALSE. The null position is not having a belief. — darthbarracuda
I needed to vent and no one here seems to get it. Sorry if I violated any forum etiquette. — Sinderion
One might believe in something despite recognising that this belief isn't (strongly) justified (or certain) – and those that say that their theism reduces to faith rather than reason or evidence would be prime examples of agnostic theists. — Michael
If one concedes that one's faith is of little justification value, then it seems like that person is of little faith and not a true believer. If I tell you that I believe in god, and I tell you the belief is entirely based upon my faith so I don't really fully believe it, then I'd say I'm half ass theist who sorta kinda believes in god. — Hanover
Suppose I fully believe in dogs based entirely upon faith, wouldn't a be a realist?
In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable.
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That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism — Christianity and Agnosticism, 1889
Suppose I fully believe in dogs based entirely upon faith, wouldn't a be a realist?
You'd be an agnostic realist. — Michael
Atheism and theism are ontological claims. Agnosticism is an epistemological claim that rejects any ontological claims. — darthbarracuda
Let's start with this: on what basis do you argue that beliefs have to be justified? In fact, "justified" here is too difficult a term, too problematic. Will you allow a shift to this: On what basis do you argue that beliefs must be anything at all other than beliefs?Atheism, just as well as theism, has to justify it's belief. — darthbarracuda
BULLSHIT. The main issue with the diagram above (ignoring all the other issues already said) is that it ignores the possibility of not having a belief whatsoever. Proponents of this kind of diagram claim that you have to be an atheist or a theist, and often claim that atheism is the null position (which is question-begging). — darthbarracuda
Practically, under what circumstances could one not have a belief (one way or the other) about god(s) or no god(s) in this god(s)-soaked world? Is anyone born into and matured in a society where the null position of "not having a belief" exists? — Bitter Crank
I think it's usually muddled by different understandings of what "knowledge" and "belief" entail.
Personally I've had to "unlearn" atheistic arguments. My current position is that I don't know what I can know about (1) what God is like, or (2)what the appropriate attitude towards God is. It's the perfect position to piss off both atheists who insist I must therefore be an atheist since I must be rejecting the usual theistic conceptions of God, and the people of the faith I was born into, since it doesn't take much to be declared an apostate under it. — Sinderion
I don't see a problem in saying there's no proof but I don't believe in God (agnostic atheist). — TheMadFool
A couple big problems with it:
* Agnosticism isn't a stance about proof.
* It seems to conflate knowledge and proof.
* It seems ignorant of the fact that empirical claims aren't — Terrapin Station
I don't think agnostic atheists are unaware of the difference between knowledge and proof. It's simply choosing one side to live life by despite a lack of proof. Also, given there are so many proofs and disproofs one can and may weigh the situation and make a decision on which belief to adopt. — TheMadFool
:ok:Wait, you're missing "Empirical claims are not provable." ("Given there are so many proofs ..."--no, there aren't. Empirical claims are not provable. (And logically, proofs simply depend on the system we've set up. It's just a way of saying that it's the only thing that works under that system.)) — Terrapin Station
A couple big problems with it:
* Agnosticism isn't a stance about proof.
* It seems to conflate knowledge and proof.
* It seems ignorant of the fact that empirical claims aren't provable. — Terrapin Station
Agnostic atheism is a term given to agnostic atheists by people outside the group who noticed that the group claim to be agnostics but live their lives as atheists. — TheMadFool
Interesting. I do tend to call those agnostics 'agnostic atheists' but I gave myself the label as well. I am a stickler for definitions and I see no way around it. — ZhouBoTong
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