What did Trump do wrong? You said you don’t know. If you don’t know what Trump did wrong, how do you know he did something wrong? — NOS4A2
IF it's the case that Trump dangled military-aid as a carrot or stick to get Ukraine to investigate a potential political opponent, Trump will be impeached and convicted in the Senate. This isn't some murky campaign finance violation nobody understands. This would be using tax-payer dollars to pressure another country to investigate a political opponent. That's easily understandable and also happens to be indefensible. There might be a few Senators who would go on record in an impeachment trial saying that that behavior is OK, but there aren't 30 of them. — RogueAI
It's being alleged by the the Wall Street Journal (and others) that Trump "pressured" (their word) Ukraine eight times to investigate Joe Biden's son. That alone, had it happened under any President's watch, would be a presidency-defining scandal.
IF it's the case that Trump dangled military-aid as a carrot or stick to get Ukraine to investigate a potential political opponent, Trump will be impeached and convicted in the Senate. This isn't some murky campaign finance violation nobody understands. This would be using tax-payer dollars to pressure another country to investigate a political opponent. That's easily understandable and also happens to be indefensible. There might be a few Senators who would go on record in an impeachment trial saying that that behavior is OK, but there aren't 30 of them.
You have more faith than me.
It seems to me prudent to want to investigate the possible corruption of the US government.
Biden was the vice-president of the United States during when the alleged corruption occurred. The notion that he is doing it to “investigate a political opponent”, and not the corruption of which his political opponent and former vice-president might be guilty, is invented whole cloth without evidence.
By Ukranians??? Uh, no. America is perfectly capable of investigating it's people. Trump wasn't asking for Ukranian help in an ongoing U.S. investigation. He was pressuring Ukraine to do an investigation. On someone who happens to be the son of his political opponent. I know you're smart enough to see the problem here.
And if there was a quid-pro-quo involving military funding, the Democrats will impeach. They might anyway, just if the WSJ reporting is accurate. And this isn't something that's hard to get to the bottom of, like the Mueller fiasco. The transcript of the call and the whistleblower's report will tell us everything.
Yes, the alleged corruption between Biden, then vice-president of the US, and his son was committed in and with Ukraine during the Obama administration. The alleged crimes occurred in Ukraine and with the Ukrainian government. I know you’re smart enough to see the problem here.
There IS a prima facia problem there. The NY Times and New Yorker have been covering it for about a year now.
But you seem to have missed the point: WE (America) are perfectly capable of investigating our own politicians. We have credible justice institutions that go back a long long time. Ukraine is barely a country. WHY would we EVER outsource an investigation to a country like Ukraine?
The answer is simple: we wouldn't. You don't have to defend everything this guy does. You realize that, right?
Trump urged the Ukrainian president to work with Guilliani , who was being facilitated by the US State Dept. in his efforts — NOS4A2
Then tell me, which branch of the government has the most power in the field of international relations? — NOS4A2
Last I checked, Guiliani was a private individual and Trump's lawyer. Whatever the position of the US State Dept. (part of the executive branch), his investigation is a private matter.
The executive. Under the doctrine of separation of powers, it is not supposed to use this power to assume judicial functions
But the state department set up the meetings and assisted the efforts, and by some reports, encouraged Guilliani to investigate. — NOS4A2
Correct, and thepresident can basically say whatever he wants to foreign leaders. — NOS4A2
That article set off so many red flags I googled the author. Guess what type of bias he is known for?
Anyways, the state dept is part of the executive. It does not have authority to assign Rudy Guliani as an investigator on behalf of "America".
So, the president is above the law and the constitution when he talks to foreign leaders. Interesting.
So, the president is above the law — Echarmion
That would be a genetic fallacy, dismissing a report based on where it comes from and not on its merits. — NOS4A2
But it raises a great point: the State Department actually asked Rudy Giuliani to contact the lawyer for Ukraine’s president.
Why is this never mentioned? — NOS4A2
No, he’s fully within the law and the constitution is what I’m arguing. No need to twist it anymore than you’ve already tried. — NOS4A2
According to recent reports, Trump is arguing that as president, he cannot even be investigated! — tim wood
But if and when the law explicitly removes itself from the arena, then what bounds self-defense? Ans.: nothing. The president "above the law"? Then I think we'll all need an AR-15 and a thousand rounds. Above or outside the law is very serious business, and any who thinks otherwise is a fool. — tim wood
Probably because Trump controls the State Department, so we can't assume the State Dept. is a neutral player here. Besides, the whistleblower report apparently doesn't concern Guliani at all. So bringing up Guliani and his contacts is a red herring.
No, they’re not neutral. The state dept has to carry out the foreign policies of the administration. But they are completely relevant to the situation, not only because they are involved in it, but also because combatting corruption abroad falls under their purview. — NOS4A2
Oh, are we already changing the narrative from "we're investigating an american for the sake of american justice" to "we're combatting corruption abroad"?
I don’t get it it. The alleged corruption would involve both Americans and Ukrainians. Does this not compute when viewed through the lens of the DNC narrative? — NOS4A2
You don't get that the executive is not supposed to influence criminal investigations, either domestic or abroad, especially not when high-profile political opponents are involved?
Ah, such faith in your orange god! You regard it as "DNC spin" to have suspicions aroused by knowlege that there was a whistleblower report. These suspicions could easily be shown to lack merit by providing the whistleblower report to Congress, as is required by law. Refusal to deliver it ADDS to suspicions. Did he offer a quid-pro-quo to the Ukrainian President? That would be illegal and impeachment-worthy. On the other hand, was he just asking for dirt on a political rival without a quid-pro-quo? That is apparently legal, but it is the public interest to know if he indeed engaged in such indecent behavior. IMO, this sort of behavior ought to be criminalized because even if there is no explicit quid-pro-quo, there's always an implicit one when a President asks for political help from a country that is beholden to us for economic or military aid.↪Echarmion
That’s corruption. That’s exactly what Joe Biden is being accused of: firing the official that was investigating his son’s company. Not only that, but the DNC is also a target for investigation for working with Ukraine, a foreign power, to influence the 2016 election.
According to the press and their followers, Trump’s big crime is speaking with the president-elect to work with Guilliani. It’s all DNC spin, because it’s actually themselves and their candidates who allegedly broke laws, — NOS4A2
So...you're OK with witch hunts, as long as the alleged witch is a Democrat.Yes, the alleged corruption between Biden, then vice-president of the US, and his son was committed in and with Ukraine during the Obama administration. The alleged crimes occurred in Ukraine and with the Ukrainian government. I know you’re smart enough to see the problem here. — NOS4A2
That’s corruption. That’s exactly what Joe Biden is being accused of: firing the official that was investigating his son’s company. Not only that, but the DNC is also a target for investigation for working with Ukraine, a foreign power, to influence the 2016 election. — NOS4A2
According to the press and their followers, Trump’s big crime is speaking with the president-elect to work with Guilliani. — NOS4A2
It’s all DNC spin, because it’s actually themselves and their candidates who allegedly broke laws, — NOS4A2
This information is being kept from the Muslims as the House of Islam continues to suppress any/all attempts to call into question the Islamic account of history in which Muslims so vehemently "believe" in. — A Gnostic Agnostic
The "information" is actually freely available. There are entire books written on the subject.
Also: The style of your post suggests you're suffering from a mental illness. Please consider getting professional help!
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