One way to put a more positive spin on this would be to say, would you rather that someone or something decided what your purpose is, or would you rather be in a position where no such determination has been made and you therefore can feel free to decide for yourself what you want it to be.

I went to a book launch a few weeks back, by an outstanding character called Deng Adut, a Somali refugee who had made his way to Australia, then graduated in law. He now helps other refugees. He impressed me as a very genuine person, and not someone who was trying to make an impression or be something special.

Adut was taken from his mother, ordered to walk to Ethiopia, and forced into the army at the age of six. Discipline was murderous. Children were executed by firing squad, and their friends were made to watch them die. The army provided them with almost no rations, and Adut contracted "all kinds of diseases that a child can get". He spent time in a primitive hospital in Ethiopia. He had two nephews and two cousins in the army, and one cousin slept beside him in the ward.

"We slept on the ground," says Adut. "The bedsheets were corn sacks. We were little, so we could actually get in them and pull them up like a blanket. He died next to me." Dozens of others died in the hospital. "The hospital would be cleared every day. Cleared of dead people. Dead kids."

After his talk, an audience member asked him how he coped with the stress and traumatic memories. He said that he felt he owed a debt to all the people that had helped him, many of whom had died. So I thought that was a good answer. So that may be a way to think about it - how to help others. It could help take your mind off the problem.

Does existence have a reason? No. I am not living for something. I didn't self-create. I live, I don't live for... Existence is a gift not requested.

I find 'naked existence' too austere, too arid, too bleak to let it remain uncovered. I try to overlay the raw fact of my existence with purpose, or divine direction. "I am here to..." "God made me because..." and so on. I find an infinity of ways to amuse, distract, or overcome raw, purposeless existence during my short turn here.

It is, perhaps, extremely presumptuous to speak for everyone, but I think we are, in fact, all in the same boat. That's how I look at it. Some people, of course, don't -- but that's their problem, not mine.

Despair is by no means the inevitable, obvious, necessary, or certain result of recognizing that existence is nakedness in a cold, damp wind. We can seek existential shelter by dint of our imagination and ingenuity, which we almost invariably succeed in doing.

Existential shelter" is no guarantee that we will always be happy, cheerful, pleasant, content, etc. Such states can not be guaranteed. We do well to obtain enough happiness, cheer, pleasing, contentment, and if we don't, well, we endure until conditions improve. Sometimes people experience great love, joy and delight, even ecstasy. And soon enough existence will evaporate for us, one by one.

After his talk, an audience member asked him how he coped with the stress and traumatic memories. He said that he felt he owed a debt to all the people that had helped him, many of whom had died. — Wayfarer

I see what your saying and have considered taking back my job as a carer but then I think "why am I helping them?" helping them for what? To achieve their purpose? Which is to help others to help others to help others. Seems a bit cyclic and pointless doesn't it?

I mean in a sense I am really asking why even live at all?

I mean in a sense I am really asking why even live at all? — intrapersona

Bare, mean existence isn't going to shell out an answer for you. Your "imagination and ingenuity" are ready, at your service. So... make an answer to your question, 'why even live at all' and make it 'good'. The same imagination, intellect, ingenuity, persistence, and so on that led you to "Why even live at all" is capable of far more.

We can seek existential shelter by dint of our imagination and ingenuity, which we almost invariably succeed in doing. — Bitter Crank

Are you speaking of pleasure?

Your "imagination and ingenuity" are ready, at your service. So... make an answer to your question, 'why even live at all' and make it 'good' — Bitter Crank

How is imagination and ingenuity going to trully relinquish existential despair? Seems like just another fancy gadget of the brain to trick itself into not thinking about how empty and absurd this place is.

For instance a monkey is captive in a zoo and treated quite un-naturally until one day a worker at the zoo notices the monkey and it uses it's ingenuity and imagination and plays with the worker, the worker then offers him shelter and gives him pleasure. Fact is, the monkey is in the freakin zoo no matter what gadgets he has.

Are you speaking of pleasure? — intrapersona

Not primarily. Though, getting out of a cold, raw wind is a real pleasure. No, more like love, warmth, good routines, giving, receiving, comfort, nurture... Being taken care of when you are sick isn't a "pleasure", it's a comfort. Getting rid of a bad headache isn't a pleasure, it's a relief. Giving kind attention to an unhappy child isn't a pleasure, it's nurture.

The same imagination, intellect, ingenuity, persistence, and so on that led you to "Why even live at all" is capable of far more. — Bitter Crank

I think it needs not imagination, intellect, ingenuity, persistence to reach being fed up with the world, it just takes uncongenial conditions and repetition, then even the stupidest crack, in fact there normally the first to crack.

Not primarily. Though, getting out of a cold, raw wind is a real pleasure. No, more like love, warmth, good routines, giving, receiving, comfort, nurture... Being taken care of when you are sick isn't a "pleasure", it's a comfort. Getting rid of a bad headache isn't a pleasure, it's a relief. Giving kind attention to an unhappy child isn't a pleasure, it's nurture. — Bitter Crank

So you're saying that the reason to live should be to alleviate suffering in the world.

I agree partially but... Hypothetically, if all the suffering were to vanish tomorrow... what would be the purpose then?

I think it needs not imagination, intellect, ingenuity, persistence to reach being fed up with the world, it just takes uncongenial conditions and repetition, — intrapersona

The World is loaded with uncongenial conditions and repetitions of bad experiences that definitely lead us to being fed up at times. That's a given. I don't at all deny that.

One way to put a more positive spin on this would be to say, would you rather that someone or something decided what your purpose is, or would you rather be in a position where no such determination has been made and you therefore can feel free to decide for yourself what you want it to be. — sender

I can't even imagine what such a purpose would be? Are you thinking something along the lines of the pharaohs and the slaves?

The problem is more one of what can purpose be? I just can't imagine what it would be apart from love, compassion, beauty, joy. Which to me, seem like neutral aspects of the human experience of which we can not claim to be a purpose for existence (as mentioned in the OP)

The World is loaded with uncongenial conditions and repetitions of bad experiences that definitely lead us to being fed up at times. That's a given. I don't at all deny that. — Bitter Crank

I meant not frustrated or having one's patience tested but rather a repetitive series of events that keep causing one to question what the purpose of doing anything actually is.

I mean I give my effort, and it is a struggle at times but why am I doing it again? Just to keep doing it?

Hypothetically, if all the suffering were to vanish tomorrow... what would be the purpose then? — intrapersona

Trust me, suffering isn't going to vanish.

"alleviate suffering in the world" is a worthy purpose. There are additional worthy purposes. Creating joy. Giving and receiving love (which one is more difficult? That's a long discussion.) Growing roses (figuratively, if not literally). Learning. Creating new knowledge. Making art. Making the world a better place for yourself and others. Giving assistance. All sorts of things. It's a very long list.

So, if you were to decide to "make art" for instance, would that solve all your problems? Of course not.

Trust me, suffering isn't going to vanish.

"alleviate suffering in the world" is a worthy purpose. There are additional worthy purposes. Creating joy. Giving and receiving love (which one is more difficult? That's a long discussion.) Growing roses (figuratively, if not literally). Learning. Creating new knowledge. Making art. Making the world a better place for yourself and others. Giving assistance. All sorts of things. It's a very long list.

So, if you were to decide to "make art" for instance, would that solve all your problems? Of course not. — Bitter Crank

Of course it won't vanish, that is why I said hypothetically.

I was trying to show you that if there was no suffering then there still wouldn't be a purpose. You are saying a worthy purpose is to "heal the world" but what will it be once the world is healed? To keep healing it more? And then what? Just to keep healing and healing and healing as long as humans exist?

That just doesn't seem logical. We are animals at base level. All animals share this in common.

"What is a man. If his chief good and market of his time. Be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more." -Hamlet

I meant not frustrated or having one's patience tested but rather a repetitive series of events that keep causing one to question what the purpose of doing anything actually is. — intrapersona

"Believing is seeing." Not always true, but sometimes it is true. If we believe that there are dangerous weird things in the dark woods, when we go walking there at night, we will certainly see them. We have to calibrate our beliefs -- that's a piece of the ingenuity thing. Whenever you raise the question, "What's the point of doing this, anyway?" you can always come up with a negative answer. (Not you personally, people in general, I mean.)

If you believe there is no purpose in life, and that everything we do is ultimately (or even immediately) a stupid waste of time, then that is how you will see it. I'm not saying you do believe that. It's just that we have to be careful how we talk to ourselves.

Whenever you raise the question, "What's the point of doing this, anyway?" you can always come up with a negative answer. (Not you personally, people in general, I mean.) — Bitter Crank

The problem is that there is not an answer at all let alone a negative one.

I wish it were the scientology was right and Xeno has created farms on planets to reap soul juice. At least then I would know why I am here... jk

If you believe there is no purpose in life, and that everything we do is ultimately (or even immediately) a stupid waste of time, then that is how you will see it. I'm not saying you do believe that. It's just that we have to be careful how we talk to ourselves. — Bitter Crank

I agree, but I haven't concluded that yet. I am in despair over not being able to find any good reason at all. Only fools jump to conclusions without evidence like that (atheists, christians, etc.)

I was trying to show you that if there was no suffering then there still wouldn't be a purpose. You are saying a worthy purpose is to "heal the world" but what will it be once the world is healed? To keep healing it more? And then what? Just to keep healing and healing and healing as long as humans exist?

That just doesn't seem logical. — intrapersona

If we had healed the world, then we would have overcome sin (a Christian might say). In a world without sin we would be whole, and happy.

I agreed at the start that there wasn't any inherent purpose in existence. There is no inherent meaning in life. That alone is a fucking raw deal, but there is an up-side: An absence of purpose and meaning leaves you free to author your own purpose and meaning.

The problem is that there is not an answer at all let alone a negative one. — intrapersona

One expects answers from a meaningless universe?

An absence of purpose and meaning leaves you free to author your own purpose and meaning. — Bitter Crank

But how does such a thing go?

It seems that whatever the mind can formulate as a purpose is just an illogical thought-trap as per our previous discussion.

One expects answers from a meaningless universe? — Bitter Crank

Proof that it is meaningless? What is an answer if the universe has no meaning? Answer necessitates meaning.

It seems that whatever the mind can formulate as a purpose is just an illogical thought-trap as per our previous discussion. — intrapersona

Careful, careful: you are undermining your own capacity to create meaning. Your choice to call it an illogical thought-trap is dead end,

Proof that it is meaningless? What is an answer if the universe has no meaning? Answer necessitates meaning. — intrapersona

Which is why you aren't going to get one from the universe.

Careful, careful: you are undermining your own capacity to create meaning. Your choice to call it an illogical thought-trap is dead end, — Bitter Crank

Well as of yet you haven't shown me how that can be true. I spelled out why love,compassion, joy etc. aren't viable products of purpose.

It is as irrational as to say that I am living for my right pinky toe.

Which is why you aren't going to get one from the universe. — Bitter Crank

haha, but the fact that answers EXIST in the universe already shows that the universe contains answers and therefore meaning.

It is as irrational as to say that I am living for my right pinky toe. — intrapersona

So, make the most of your toe, then. Look, it's getting late, it's been a long day. It's time for me to brush my meaningless teeth and go to bed. I've enjoyed this discussion. You are OK. You are going to make it.

:D This isn't over...

I wish you a meaningless sleep

Well, it's pretty useless posting 'why should I be happy' on an internet forum. It's completely up to you. That's all there is to it.

I agree, but I haven't concluded that yet. I am in despair over not finding any good reason. Only fools jump to conclusions like that (atheists, christians, etc.) — intrapersona

Indeed this seems to be a reasonable position, however it also seems to offer quite little in the way of prescriptive action. So we're left with a kind of dizzying uncertainty - do I walk my dog, do I ask that girl out, do I contemplate the nature of the divine, do I kill myself, do I watch the clock tick endlessly, do I study thermodynamics, do I vote for this guy or that guy, do I get a spray tan, do I make a smoothie, do I take a nap, do I read Hegel, do I do I do I do I do I ...

At some point in time your biological needs take over and you are forced into action, reluctancy be damned.

Do we live for something? Does the divine give us fulfillment? Can we revolt against the absurd? All of these thoughts seem inspiring, yet oddly distant or esoteric, as if it's always the other people who have it all figured out, and we're just playing catch-up. Don't agree with So-and-So? Then read Such-and-Such, fuck So-and-So, Such-and-Such has all the answers. And on it goes.

Obviously many will disagree with me when I say this, but I don't see very many good reasons to accept that even a single person "has it all figured out." Not the egotistical pop-scientists, not the religious nuts, not the academic philosophers (who have made neuroticism a discipline), not the stoner kid down the street, not the heroic explorer or patriot, not the spiritual gurus, not you, me, or anyone else here. Hell, God Almighty probably doesn't even know what the fuck is going on.

Now this doctrine of uncertainty is ironically a rather "certain" doctrine - indeed if taken literally it would lead to a contradiction: I am positively sure that nobody, including myself, knows anything substantial (a quite substantial claim!) But it seems to me that this belief in the uncertainty is more of a gut-reaction than a crisp theoretical position - yet surely gut-reactions have some credentials in cases like this.

So maybe, just maybe (notice the uncertainty?) a point of existence can be derived from a skeptical curiosity that the doctrine of uncertainty will be falsified in the future. Prove me wrong, Universe. Show me there is an overarching purpose. I'll stick around and eat some popcorn in the meantime, entertained by the whole absurdity and metaphysical uncertainty of it all.

And when I die, if there is no meaning to be found, I'll ask the Universe to guess what finger I'm holding up.