I wish to uncover the truth about your Donald Trump. The reason is because I want people of this great country to be informed and ready for 2020.

Through our discussion and debate, I predict there will be contradictions, lies, and unethical behavior unbecoming of the Republican Party/Trump. It may even mirror other Presidents like Nixon and Clinton. I will cross over to any and all relevant domains, including the religious-right who also supports him. It will cover all topics of relevant to Philosophy, Psychology and Political Philosophy.

It will also uncover truth about his business dealings, track records as a slum lord, taxes, and ethical behavior unbecoming of what we deserve as a President.

I assert he has not drained the Swamp. He is part of the Swamp.

Can you deal with that tough guy?

I won’t stop you from doing anything. This thread is for that purpose, and in fact, from the looks of it, you have a vast consensus and monstrous library of yellow journalism to help you.

But I’m not required to participate in any of it. I know you’re going to tell one side of the story and will suppress all evidence to the contrary. You’re going to assume Trump’s motives, and swing away at the little effigy you’ve created. You don’t like the guy; I get it.

Look dude, I prayed for the guy. But he is who he is. I've waited, and have had faith, and have also given him the benefits of doubt. But the guy has disappointed and has fallen short in many areas, and has proven me wrong. He keeps doing the same thing. We deserve better dude.

Does that mean all Presidents are perfect? Of course not. but you won't admit to any wrong doing. And you apparently don't think we do deserve better. So I'm going to challenge that!!!

Hey, you might even learn a little something about the danger's of dichotomizing [your sense of logic] politics.

Again, put up or shut up man!

LOL

What has he fallen short on? He’s not even at the end of his first term.

I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” he continued. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.

Is Trump suggesting that leakers should be executed? Certainly sounds like it.

Your night in shining armor, Mueller, waged a massive fishing expedition, and arrested exactly zero Americans for the crimes of Russian collusion to influence the election, any crimes related to helping Russia, which you conspiracy theorists went on about for years. — NOS4A2

Mueller is hardly my knight in shining armor. He was guided by precedent not law. He assiduously refused to state conclusions. This was certainly to Trump's benefit even if not for his benefit. I am of two minds about this. On the one hand I understand the reasoning behind it, but on the other, by ignoring established custom and indicted Trump he would have been free to state allegations.

Calling it a fishing expedition distorts the facts. If it were a fishing expedition it would be catch and release, but Mueller refused to even make accusations because he thought it unfair to Trump to do so since Trump could not provide a legal defense unless he was indicted.

You cling to the non-legal term "collusion" as if it were a life-savor. Manafort, Gates, Cohen, and other close associates of Trump were found guilty of or admitted to crimes related to Trump's election, including obstruction of justice.

The Mueller report stated that it did not find sufficient evidence that the Trump campaign "coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities", but this must be viewed in light of 1) the administrations efforts to suppress information and 2) Mueller's refusal to make accusations that Trump could not defend against since a sitting president could not be indicted. The fact that they did not find sufficient evidence does not mean that they did not find any evidence.

The Mueller Report was damning of Trump. He produced actionable evidence of wrongdoing, the only reason it didn’t culminate in impeachment proceedings was because Trump was shielded by the GOP which has been corrupted and turned into Trump’s personal fiefdom. Mueller made it clear that bringing charges was beyond his remit but that congress could easily do so.

This latest case is much more damning - smoking gun and bleeding corpse. Again, Congressional Republicans have been so corrupted by The Don that they’re defending the indefensible, but impeachment has to be brought against Trump for violating his oath of office. To do otherwise would be to let corruption and criminality stand. Trump has to be brought to account, hopefully removed from office and ultimately jailed for his crimes.

The purview of the investigation was Russian interference in the 2016 election and any other matters that arise from the investigation. Americans were arrested for the “any other matters that arise from the investigation”, unrelated to Russian interference, collusion, spying, influencing the elections. That’s a fishing expedition par excellence. Manafort and gates and Cohen for crimes unrelated to the Trump campaign, and Russia.

I mention collusion because that’s the word that was beaten in our heads. Suspected collusion, possible coordination, whatever you want to call it, is the exact reason the administration spied on Americans, a political campaign, in the lead up to the election. This spying, these now arbitrary show-trials, leaks, the accusations—I repeat, not a single American was charged or indicted on the core conspiracy theory of whether there was any conspiracy or coordination with Russia over the election

Yep I just heard that.

BTW this guy doesn't want to debate me I think he's scared LOL

Come on tough guy are you scared?

Or are you just full of hot air... LOL

Soon we will learn more about the origins of the Russia collusion hoax and possible FISA warrant abuses. The results of that investigation will be out soon. No point in jumping back on that sinking ship, at least until we get a better sense of how it all happened,

I’ve answered many of your questions but you won’t answer one of mine. Scared?

Debate me one on one. And I will make you cry like a baby LOL!!!!

Please, if you want to get started, make a case, whatever, just start.

Yay, ok awesome! I'll start a thread soon. And no worries, if you chicken out I'll understand!

The public needs to know the truth, an expose you and your (Trump's) ideology for what it is LOL!!!

If it involves Donald Trump put it here. We don’t need to poison these boards with trump debates.

No I want to debate you one-on-one and prove that I will beat you !!!

Are you man enough to take the challenge?

Americans were arrested for the “any other matters that arise from the investigation”, unrelated to Russian interference, collusion, spying, influencing the elections. — NOS4A2

They are not unrelated. The problem is that, as the report states and I said above, the relationship could not be legally established by the investigation because of obstruction of justice and the limits of the investigation.

This is why so many have pushed for an impeachment investigation. The constraints under which the Mueller investigation operated no longer apply.

I repeat, not a single American was charged or indicted on the core conspiracy theory of whether there was any conspiracy or coordination with Russia over the election — NOS4A2

And I repeat, this is not evidence of their innocence. Trump has done everything he can to prevent any investigation into his activities. He can call it fishing expedition but it seems highly unlikely that he would try to prevent the investigations if he was not worried about who might get caught.

You might think it is all a hoax, but whether or not it is cannot be determined without an investigation, and, tellingly, you and Trump would like nothing more than to prevent the investigations from proceeding.

One more point: the idea that a sitting president should not be indicted is based on the concern that this would take up too much of his time and energy and prevent him from doing his job. But Trump has and will continue to spend a great deal of time and energy suppressing any and all investigations.

And I repeat, this is not evidence of their innocence. Trump has done everything he can to prevent any investigation into his activities. He can call it fishing expedition but it seems highly unlikely that he would try to prevent the investigations if he was not worried about who might get caught.

You might think it is all a hoax, but whether or not it is cannot be determined without an investigation, and, tellingly, you and Trump would like nothing more than to prevent the investigations from proceeding.

One more point: the idea that a sitting president should not be indicted is based on the concern that this would take up too much of his time and energy and prevent him from doing his job. But Trump has and will continue to spend a great deal of time and energy suppressing any and all investigations.

It’s not evidence of their guilt either. Investigations such as Mueller’s are not designed to prove innocence or exonerate anyone; they are to prove guilt. This is simple due process.

Yes, I do not believe in unjust and arbitrary investigations without probable cause, spying on political campaigns, and perpetual investigations for non-crimes. That’s not justice. That’s tyranny.

It’s not evidence of their guilt either. Investigations such as Mueller’s are not designed to prove innocence or exonerate anyone; they are to prove guilt. This is simple due process. — NOS4A2

Mueller was quite clear that he was not going to prove guilt for the very reason that without an indictment there could be no due process, and he had no intention of indicting. He left all that to Congress.

I do not believe in unjust and arbitrary investigations without probable cause ... — NOS4A2

It is evident that you do not understand what probable cause means. You are spinning in circles and digging yourself deeper and deeper into the hole you are trying to extricate yourself from. You may think the investigations unjust and arbitrary but saying so does not make it so.

Breaking news I just learned that the White House locked down the transcripts from this Ukraine discussion on a special file server....

Breaking news I just learned that the White House locked down the transcripts from this Ukraine discussion on a special file server.... — 3017amen

Yes, this was discussed in the hearings today. Just another attempt by Trump to obstruct justice under the rubric of executive privilege.

Whatever the results of the investigations and the election, I think we will see explicit limits but on executive power. The Republicans may not go along if Trump is re-elected but certainly will if a Democrat is. They may go along sooner or later anyway because sooner or later a Democrat will be elected president and they certainly do not want a Democrat to be able to do what Trump is doing.

Ha I hear you. That Trumper dude on this thread is in denial of that very thing.

And he's afraid to debate me 1on 1 LOL

Mueller was quite clear that he was not going to prove guilt for the very reason that without an indictment there could be no due process, and he had no intention of indicting. He left all that to Congress.

Mueller also said this:

“Every defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty”. He said this in regards to the Russians. The presumption of innocence a bedrock of the American legal system.

What did he say of the President of the United States?

“If we had had confidence that the president had clearly not committed a crime we would have said so.”

That’s a perversion of of the presumption of innocence. Mueller’s standard is completely unknown to the American legal system. It’s fake, phoney, a sham. special counsel regulations require the special counsel to follow DOJ rules, which includes the presumption of innocence.

Guys I'm sorry I'm late to the game but I just heard that Trump is suggesting execution of the whistleblower....this is unbelievable.... Can someone bring that quote up for all of us to see, if not I'll find it and try to post it... !!!!!

What did he say of the President of the United States?

“If we had had confidence that the president had clearly not committed a crime we would have said so.”

That’s a perversion of of the presumption of innocence. Mueller’s — NOS4A2

It is not. You are in over your head. You are throwing around legal terms now without any understanding of what they mean.

Trump Quote:

I want to know who’s the person who gave the whistle-blower the information because that’s close to a spy,” Trump told staffers with the United States Mission to the United Nations this morning, according to the New York Times. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart with spies and treason, right? We used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”


Dude, I know why you don't want it to debate me...Wow . You gotta be embarrassed. What do you tell your children?

It is not. You are in over your head. You are throwing around legal terms now without any understanding of what they mean.

How is it not? Show me how far I am in over my head. I don’t mind being corrected.

I’ve given you thousands of opportunities to begin making your case. I don’t know what you’re waiting for.

How is it not? Show me how far I am in over my head. I don’t mind being corrected. — NOS4A2

First you would need to take your head out of your ass.

I've told you before I don't want to be distracted, it's you and me one-on-one so I could beat you and only you!

Let me know when you got the balls to do it, I'll be happy to oblige