Does absolute none existence seem more appealing to you?

Because if you're not alive, this is the alternative. If you're alive, you have at least two choices, either to make the best of it, or to languish in one of various depressive states.

So you've got three choices;
Absolute none existence.
A depressive, or aimless opt out( while continuing to live).
Making the best of it.

Which do you prefer?

I basically go over what you are trying to get at in these threads. You may want to check them out and if you want to discuss any of the points, especially about the idea of instrumentality, feel free to make a comment.
http://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/519/instrumentality/p1
http://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/652/technology-and-science-and-our-lifes-purpose#Item_20
http://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/642/the-nature-of-the-individuals-responsibility-to-the-group-or-society#Item_28
http://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/657/relationships-are-they-really-a-source-for-meaningful-life-and-optimism#Item_56
http://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/669/how-many-different-harms-can-you-name#Item_103

If you do not want to read all those thread, I'll copy and paste the first paragraph about instrumentality:
Here is the idea of instrumentality- the absurd feeling that can be experienced from apprehension of the constant need to put forth energy to pursue goals and actions in waking life. This feeling can make us question the whole human enterprise itself of maintaining mundane repetitive upkeep, maintaining institutions, and pursuing any action that eats up free time simply for the sake of being alive and having no other choice. There is also a feeling of futility as, the linguistic- general processor brain cannot get out of its own circular loop of awareness of this. Another part of the feeling of futility is the idea that there is no ultimate completion from any goal or action. It is that idea that there is nothing truly fulfilling. Time moves forward and we must make more goals and actions.

So yeah I have come to a very similar conclusion. Essentially the ethic starts with antinatalism.. a questioning of why even bring new people into existence. Antinatalism not only solves the problem of future suffering, but it puts your own into perspective too. As the already-existing people experiencing existence, we must constantly be aware of the instrumentality of things. Do not flinch from it and move away to distraction. Rather, it is okay to bitch at the situation.. Be proud to be a Philosophical Pessimist.. Most people are going to tell you to be happy in the absurdity (Camus/Nietzschean style). This is an acceptance of the situation and take the good with the bad. I say it is okay to bitch at it. Philosophical Pessimism is a philosophy of consolation. There are innumerable amounts of harm, many quite nuanced and personalized for the individual. Instrumentality is the background harm out of all of them..it is the absurd angsty feeling.. It is the knowledge that we are going in day in and day out one day rolling into the next. It is the result of a self-aware animal contemplating its own situation. You will have wants and needs that will never be satisfied.. You will have contingent harms (as defined as circumstantial harms that are unwanted/unforeseen), and you will have to contend with the pendulum swing of your own willing nature which is survival through cultural upkeep on one hand (through all the various ways you keep yourself alive and well-adjusted in your cultural setting) and boredom on the other side which, if experienced for a measure of time, will lead to ideas of ennui (world-weariness) and instrumentality (things just do to do to do).. Inevitably, we must go from boredom to entertainment-seeking in our cultural settings.

What do you live for? — intrapersona

The possibility that I'll find a better purpose than this one, which will probably be the self esteem that comes from achieving difficult things.

Happiness is an extension of the human experience much like my right pinky toe is too. Claiming happiness is a purpose for life is absurd. You might here a great many people claim "The very sole purpose of my existence is to experience happiness" but this makes as much sense as to say "the very sole purpose of my existence is to experience my right pinky toe". — intrapersona

I live for the experience of being alive - the drama, the sadness and the happiness, because one cannot be without the other. Being alive is more interesting than being dead.

At the moment, I don't have the slightest inclination or reason not to live as long as I possibly can. It's no more in question for me, than say, as I noted in another thread, the question of "Why don't I make and always wear (in public) a hat that looks like a gigantic beach ball and that has five tiger gongs hanging off of it that I regularly strike." Most folks, including me, haven't the slightest inclination or reason to make and wear such a hat, or to even think about it in the first place. Well, that's just what the idea of there being a question whether I should continue to live is like for me. That it would even be an issue is absurd to me.

(And in case you don't know what a tiger gong is: tiger gong)

To be or not to be is never the question when virtue is its own reward and wonder the beginning of wisdom, while contentment comes at no cost.

A woman from a Yanamamo-like tribe moved to NYC to taste the Big Apple. When reporters asked her first impressions in moving from the stone age to the modern jet age she said she had no idea that people could be so lonely all pressed together on the streets like cattle. She had grown up surrounded by the same thirty people seeing at most a handful of strangers a year without a radio, mailman, or even books and had never felt that lonely in her life.

Definitely that's something I dislike about New York/about big cities in general. In public, not only is everyone in their own little world, but they tend to react quite negatively if you in any way try to "break" that wall they put up.

It was odd for me simply moving from South Florida to New York City (I was born in the midwest, but raised in South Florida, where I lived everywhere from Miami to the "boonies" in western Palm Beach County). I can imagine that the differences would be that much more exaggerated for someone moving from a more traditional tribal existence to New York City.

I used to live near the North Carolina - Virginia boarder where the locals were famous for their gracious southern culture and elaborate child rearing traditions that produced adults who could charm the pants off a snake. Andy Griffith was from that area and he was actually one of the least charming. Seriously, to this day some of these people can charm the pants off a snake, in part, because they never take themselves seriously and don't let it go to their heads. To them, its just life and who they are while, these days, being content even with who you are is considered synonymous with being a loser.

Well, it's pretty useless posting 'why should I be happy' on an internet forum. It's completely up to you. That's all there is to it. — Wayfarer

Strawman if ever I saw one. I argued why happiness doesn't consist as a purpose for life. It had nothing to do whether one should or shouldn't be happy. You fool :P

Indeed this seems to be a reasonable position, however it also seems to offer quite little in the way of prescriptive action. So we're left with a kind of dizzying uncertainty - do I walk my dog, do I ask that girl out, do I contemplate the nature of the divine, do I kill myself, do I watch the clock tick endlessly, do I study thermodynamics, do I vote for this guy or that guy, do I get a spray tan, do I make a smoothie, do I take a nap, do I read Hegel, do I do I do I do I do I ...

At some point in time your biological needs take over and you are forced into action, reluctancy be damned. — darthbarracuda

Biological needs can force us into action but our purpose in life still be void. Just because I don't have purpose does not mean I am a motionless knitwit who gives every reason to procrastinate. It just means that slowly I will lose interest in EVERYTHING and start to either think about spiritual reclusiveness or suicide.

Do we live for something? Does the divine give us fulfillment? Can we revolt against the absurd? All of these thoughts seem inspiring, yet oddly distant or esoteric, as if it's always the other people who have it all figured out, and we're just playing catch-up. Don't agree with So-and-So? Then read Such-and-Such, fuck So-and-So, Such-and-Such has all the answers. And on it goes.

Obviously many will disagree with me when I say this, but I don't see very many good reasons to accept that even a single person "has it all figured out." Not the egotistical pop-scientists, not the religious nuts, not the academic philosophers (who have made neuroticism a discipline), not the stoner kid down the street, not the heroic explorer or patriot, not the spiritual gurus, not you, me, or anyone else here. Hell, God Almighty probably doesn't even know what the fuck is going on.

Now this doctrine of uncertainty is ironically a rather "certain" doctrine - indeed if taken literally it would lead to a contradiction: I am positively sure that nobody, including myself, knows anything substantial (a quite substantial claim!) But it seems to me that this belief in the uncertainty is more of a gut-reaction than a crisp theoretical position - yet surely gut-reactions have some credentials in cases like this. — darthbarracuda

I think what you mean by "figured it out" is that they have found a purpose in life. IMO, I would think people can have a purpose in life and still not need to know wtf is going on, so isn't the topic of convo here about finding a purpose in life?

So maybe, just maybe (notice the uncertainty?) a point of existence can be derived from a skeptical curiosity that the doctrine of uncertainty will be falsified in the future. Prove me wrong, Universe. Show me there is an overarching purpose. I'll stick around and eat some popcorn in the meantime, entertained by the whole absurdity and metaphysical uncertainty of it all.

And when I die, if there is no meaning to be found, I'll ask the Universe to guess what finger I'm holding up. — darthbarracuda

When you say stick around, you mean 100,000 generations? And also, how is that you are entertained by whole absurdity and metaphysical uncertainty? If anything it is cold and a little frightening

Does absolute none existence seem more appealing to you? — Punshhh

What the hell does that even mean?

How could I even guage or calculate with approximation if it would be more appealing if I have no idea what it is like?

That is like asking which pocket you want to choose from, in the right... would you like this plastic banana that is electrified at 250v? or in the left... would you like this something a rather with a superduper wizz bang thingamajig.

If you're alive, you have at least two choices, either to make the best of it, or to languish in one of various depressive states. — Punshhh

What does making the best of it entail? I clearly outlined in my OP

"Please note this is not a pessimistic viewpoint but a realistic one. I am not saying the glass is half empty but saying what does it matter at all?"

This about finding purpose, nothing to do with depression.

I basically go over what you are trying to get at in these threads. You may want to check them out and if you want to discuss any of the points, especially about the idea of instrumentality, feel free to make a comment. — schopenhauer1

Thanks, I checked out all of them and found instrumentality to be the most pertinent here:

Instrumentality- the absurd feeling that can be experienced from apprehension of the constant need to put forth energy to pursue goals and actions in waking life. This feeling can make us question the whole human enterprise itself of maintaining mundane repetitive upkeep, maintaining institutions, and pursuing any action that eats up free time simply for the sake of being alive and having no other choice.

I also found it interesting that you claimed the lofty goal of nonexistence or a transcendental existence through ascetic practices is only a coping mechanism for the situation but never truly resolves it.

So yeah I have come to a very similar conclusion. Essentially the ethic starts with antinatalism.. a questioning of why even bring new people into existence. Antinatalism not only solves the problem of future suffering, but it puts your own into perspective too. As the already-existing people experiencing existence, we must constantly be aware of the instrumentality of things. Do not flinch from it and move away to distraction. Rather, it is okay to bitch at the situation.. Be proud to be a Philosophical Pessimist.. Most people are going to tell you to be happy in the absurdity (Camus/Nietzschean style). This is an acceptance of the situation and take the good with the bad. I say it is okay to bitch at it. Philosophical Pessimism is a philosophy of consolation. There are innumerable amounts of harm, many quite nuanced and personalized for the individual. Instrumentality is the background harm out of all of them..it is the absurd angsty feeling.. It is the knowledge that we are going in day in and day out one day rolling into the next. It is the result of a self-aware animal contemplating its own situation. You will have wants and needs that will never be satisfied.. You will have contingent harms (as defined as circumstantial harms that are unwanted/unforeseen), and you will have to contend with the pendulum swing of your own willing nature which is survival through cultural upkeep on one hand (through all the various ways you keep yourself alive and well-adjusted in your cultural setting) and boredom on the other side which, if experienced for a measure of time, will lead to ideas of ennui (world-weariness) and instrumentality (things just do to do to do).. Inevitably, we must go from boredom to entertainment-seeking in our cultural settings. — schopenhauer1

Ok, but I still don't see all of that addressing the great one word question... Why?

The possibility that I'll find a better purpose than this one, which will probably be the self esteem that comes from achieving difficult things. — Ovaloid

You live for self-esteem? I can't imagine a more egotistical reason for a will to live, haha. I can already imagine you on your death bed with thousands of trophies and a big plump chest with pouty looks, exclaiming to everyone "You see how good I am? You see?!?!". Then you drop dead on the floor, bahaha.

— Ovaloid

Nice pic, but this has nothing to do with God. Furthermore it is the person in the tree who is being irrational. It was just stated that nothing they do matters and then he claims that "the future is an adventure". What is the point of an adventure if it has no point?

In other words, who wants to go to the north pole just to walk around aimlessly on an ice sheet? You go travelling on holiday to experience the different cultures, take in new sights,smells etc. all of which contribute tothe purpose of travelling.

Philosophizing about life's purpose on a bigger scale than that doesn't map down to those same categories unfortunately, and is more akin to walking around the north pole aimlessly.

Effectively your argument is "live life to experience it" but that really doesn't make sense. It is like saying cary 1000 buckets of water just because you can bro! It isn't self-validating and can not be.

I live for the experience of being alive - the drama, the sadness and the happiness, because one cannot be without the other. — Harry Hindu

What is the point of an adventure if it has no point?

In other words, who wants to go to the north pole just to walk around aimlessly on an ice sheet? You go travelling on holiday to experience the different cultures, take in new sights,smells etc. all of which contribute tothe purpose of travelling.

Philosophizing about life's purpose on a bigger scale than that doesn't map down to those same categories unfortunately, and is more akin to walking around the north pole aimlessly.

Effectively your argument is "live life to experience it" but that really doesn't make sense. It is like saying cary 1000 buckets of water just because you can bro! It isn't self-validating and can not be.

Being alive is more interesting than being dead. — Harry Hindu

What the hell does that even mean?

How could you even guage or calculate with approximation if it would be more appealing if you have no idea what it is like to be dead?

That is like asking which pocket you want to choose from, in the right... would you like this plastic banana that is electrified at 250v? or in the left... would you like this something a rather with a superduper wizz bang thingamajig.

Yeah harry hindu, being alive is more interesting that being a something a rather with a superduper wizz bang thingamajig... makes total sense :-}

At the moment, I don't have the slightest inclination or reason not to live as long as I possibly can. It's no more in question for me, than say, as I noted in another thread, the question of "Why don't I make and always wear (in public) a hat that looks like a gigantic beach ball and that has five tiger gongs hanging off of it that I regularly strike." Most folks, including me, haven't the slightest inclination or reason to make and wear such a hat, or to even think about it in the first place. Well, that's just what the idea of there being a question whether I should continue to live is like for me. That it would even be an issue is absurd to me. — Terrapin Station

That just seems like a response ANY animal would make if they had the linguistic ability to do so.

Don't confuse your genetic predisposition for survival IN your thoughts for your personal preferences over what you find fashionable.

To be or not to be is never the question when virtue is its own reward and wonder the beginning of wisdom, while contentment comes at no cost. — wuliheron

Why does virtue make to be or not to be not worth considering?

Why does wonder/wisdom make to be or not to be not worth considering?

Because they are so interesting, pleasurable? Interest or pleasure is an extension of the human experience much like my right pinky toe is too. Claiming Interest or pleasure is a purpose for life is absurd. You might here a great many people claim "The very sole purpose of my existence is to experience Interest or pleasure" but this makes as much sense as to say "the very sole purpose of my existence is to experience my right pinky toe".

Does contentment come at no cost though? Truely? The farmer has to work hard to pay his bills so that he can be content. Monks have to work for it by meditating all day. The experience of contentedness is a rare sight too, all around the world minus a few primitive tribes.

What the hell does that even mean?

How could I even guage or calculate with approximation if it would be more appealing if I have no idea what it is like?

That is like asking which pocket you want to choose from, in the right... would you like this plastic banana that is electrified at 250v? or in the left... would you like this something a rather with a superduper wizz bang thingamajig.

It's quite simple, an absence of anything, everything. There are no bananas or thingamajig, it's quite simple. In fact it couldn't be simpler.

"Please note this is not a pessimistic viewpoint but a realistic one. I am not saying the glass is half empty but saying what does it matter at all?"

This about finding purpose, nothing to do with depression.

Ahh, so your question is about purpose. Then what is all that stuff about meaning, or why you should carry on with living etc? That is all about what we are doing in this world we find ourselves in, which includes meaning, but nothing to do with any purposes in existence. It's true that people have purpose in their lives, but that is due to them having agency, hence purposes in action, reasons for action.

Any purposes in the existence of the existence we find ourselves in are a different issue and can only be coherent in reference to any agency who, or which, is responsible for its existence.

So there are two seperate purposes here;

The purposes of human agents.
The purpose of agents responsible for the existence of the existence we find ourselves in.


So it seems that you are asking about the purpose of life, well this is in the first category, the purposes of human agents. Well there are many answers to this, but none of them answer anything about the second category. That is a category error.

I have given purpose a lot of thought and have concluded that the answer is for humanity to secure its long term survival with a healthy social culture, which manages the planetary resources sustainably and cares for and maintains the biosphere. Is that not a worthy purpose?

More often than late I have found myself wondering "what I am even living for?". It seems after some many years of analysis of this question that all I can rationally say is that I live only because I am afraid to die, like any other animal on earth. — intrapersona

What puzzles me is why you are taking it to be, or else insisting on making it, a question of cold analysis. Ask yourself whether there is anything or anyone that you care about deeply. or even a little. Does any activity interest you? Do you have any creative or spiritual aspirations? Do any artworks or works of philosophy, or literature or works of music move you? Do you love any activities like dancing or walking in the wilderness or any sports? Does any religion or spiritual teaching speak to your imagination, intuitions or emotions?

If the answer is 'no' to all, or even to any, of these questions, then have you considered the possibility that it is your being unable to see past cold, dead analysis, at least in some connections, that is doing the damage to your state of mind, and perhaps ruining or at least diminishing what could be a productive and flourishing life?

Ok, but I still don't see all of that addressing the great one word question... Why? — intrapersona

Why, this is the way we seem to be structured based on our constant willing nature.. we have survival needs and we have entertainment needs/wants to keep us busy. The idea of flow and hope are big parts of this. We want to get caught up in something so that we do not actually see existence itself or contend with our own boredom. We also have hope that some future state will bring more pleasure than the present state. This provides the carrot and stick.

You maintain your little world doing your pendulum swing.. Upkeep is really important here. You survive- go to work, consume, maintain your space.. In modern settings this is your property and living situation.. You look for entertainment.. this can be things to alleviate boredom including loneliness.. You look for a friend group, a mate, hobbies, etc. With a mate you may try to form a family unit so that you have an anchor- a unit to go back to.. A family is almost a manifestation of boredom multiplied.. If you have a unit of people, you will be that much more occupied.. Your world will be filled with concerns of other people at-the-ready for you to have to deal with.. Anything to avoid existence itself.. that churning will that moves your forward to the next task, ensuring you keep following activities related to cultural upkeep (survival, maintaining property, etc.), and making sure you find ways to entertain.

I agree. I push on in the knowledge that some people matter to me; that some activities matter to me; that I find caring, respect and curiosity in me and follow where they lead me. All this 'purpose' business: what sense can we make of finding a desire for purpose in us? There's a beginning.

It's quite simple, an absence of anything, everything. There are no bananas or thingamajig, it's quite simple. In fact it couldn't be simpler. — Punshhh

Don't you see though that they are one and the same thing? You don't KNOW what an absence of anything is because you can't ever experience it. It is simple because you just aren't looking at it deeply enough.

I have given purpose a lot of thought and have concluded that the answer is for humanity to secure its long term survival with a healthy social culture, which manages the planetary resources sustainably and cares for and maintains the biosphere. Is that not a worthy purpose? — Punshhh

That purpose is the same as I stated in my OP, just to keep surviving and not die like all other animals. That is not a purpose, that is an instinct.

What puzzles me is why you are taking it to be, or else insisting on making it, a question of cold analysis. Ask yourself whether there is anything or anyone that you care about deeply. or even a little. Does any activity interest you? Do you have any creative or spiritual aspirations? Do any artworks or works of philosophy, or literature or works of music move you? Do you love any activities like dancing or walking in the wilderness or any sports? Does any religion or spiritual teaching speak to your imagination, intuitions or emotions?

If the answer is 'no' to all, or even to any, of these questions, then have you considered the possibility that it is your being unable to see past cold, dead analysis, at least in some connections, that is doing the damage to your state of mind, and perhaps ruining or at least diminishing what could be a productive and flourishing life? — John

Sure John, there are various aspects of my existence that I find fun, beautifull, eccentric, enlightening but AS I POINTING OUT IN MY OP I am failing to see how these are a source for the purpose in ones life.

It is seriously like no one has actually read my OP and understands what I am saying in this thread.

Let me say it again:

There are some fleeting moments of joy and beauty that I can capture but it is foolish to live FOR those moments exclusively because they are transitory and fleeting, nor do they actually give any more purpose to one's life, it just makes life more "exciting". They are merely moments in which one is so elated with pleasure that they do not think of how empty and absurd their situation as a human is. If one were to live for pleasure alone it would leave one waiting in anticipation all the time and actually make life worse!
Happiness is an extension of the human experience much like my right pinky toe is too. Claiming happiness is a purpose for life is absurd. You might here a great many people claim "The very sole purpose of my existence is to experience happiness" but this makes as much sense as to say "the very sole purpose of my existence is to experience my right pinky toe".

We want to get caught up in something so that we do not actually see existence itself or contend with our own boredom. We also have hope that some future state will bring more pleasure than the present state. This provides the carrot and stick. — schopenhauer1

Exactly, we are just kidding ourselves that our life is worth living or that it has purpose and/or meaning (self-created or otherwise)