If it's illegal then it's illegal and ought be punished, if not by indictment then by impeachment (and then indictment). I think it's crazy to suggest that the powerful shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes just because – what – it might be more prudential, politically speaking, to let it go and focus on other things? — Michael

Political reality is not so lofty. Efforts to remove Trump like this are far more likely to fan the flames of 'anti-elite' sentiment than quell them - a bunch of law-wonks removing an elected president like Trump right at the moment when people have less trust in institutions than ever? That strikes me as madness. Anyone who thinks politics needs to be played by principles at this particular time is complaining about a leaky tap in a burning building. Trump ought to be destroyed by political mobalization and bold, creative, and daring ideas - not this tinker-toy legal grace.

Everyone knows Trump is a corrupt, bumbling idiot. "More information" is the liberal technocrat's fantasy of political motivation. As if we just need one more effort because the last ones worked out so well. Russia, Corruption, Collusion - all these are excuses to not do things, not motivations to begin them. America needs chemotherapy - long, protracted, and painful, and not this deus ex machina nonsense that no one cares about.

Very well said! Your last post should be a 'sticky'!!!

We're all talking common sense here!

A preview of how things will unfold:

Pompeo:

Let me be clear: I will not tolerate such tactics, and I will use all means at my disposal to prevent and expose any attempts to intimidate the dedicated professionals whom I am proud to lead and serve alongside at the Department of State.

What are these intimidation tactics? The attempt to dispose potential witnesses. Both Trump and Barr have called some of those potential witnesses spies and Trump has called the whistle-blower a traitor who should be treated as traitors were in the good old days (the latest in his efforts to make America great again).

Trump, contrary to the law, is attempting to find out the identify of the whistle-blower and has declared him or her a "fraud". He received push-back by Republican Senator Chuck Grassley, who emphasized the importance of evaluating the credibility of the whistle-blowers claims.

Attempts to thwart and discredit the investigation are likely to back-fire. Two important Republicans, McConnell and Grassley, are clear sighted enough to see that an investigation is necessary. The Republican defense tactic of at the same time faulting Democrats for prejudging the case while prejudging the case exposes their hypocrisy.

Yep I know. It's that mobster/thug mentality that he surrounded himself with growing up. And people fell for that stuff, geese.

We gotta smarten up. It's scary too. Just think how the whistleblower feels. I mean the whistleblower laws are there to protect folks so that they feel encouraged to report suspicious behavior/activity....otherwise we loose that check and balance.

I know I worked in Government...

Political reality is not so lofty. Efforts to remove Trump like this are far more likely to fan the flames of 'anti-elite' sentiment than quell them - a bunch of law-wonks removing a president like Trump right at the moment when people have less trust in institutions than ever? — StreetlightX

The anti-elite rhetoric has played itself out. If the elite want to discredit the elite then they discredit themselves. Trump, Barr, Pompeo cannot distinguish themselves from the elite, with the money and power to be considered the elite under the current narrow -minded definition of elitism.

The anti-elite rhetoric has played itself out. — Fooloso4

What evidence is there of this? Like, show me the right-leaning think tank peice that says 'maybe we should put our trust back in the elites'. Trump is still the 'their man' of the anti-elites, and the effort to downplay this would be a massive political miscalculation.

What evidence is there of this? Like, show me the right-leaning think tank peice that says 'maybe we should put our trust back in the elites'. Trump is still the 'their man' of the anti-elites, and the effort to downplay this would be a massive political miscalculation. — StreetlightX

You mean the right-leaning think tanks run by highly-educated, politically connected elites?

Yes, who will eternally stoke the flames against the 'right' elite targets while playing the anti-elitist game. Witness Tucker Carlson.

Really, those who see impeachment as anything other than as an absolute disaster - a disaster made even more disasterous because of its quasi-necessity, forced by the hand of an utter imbicile - are in for a bad time. Any feeling of schadenfreude ought to be tempered by the realization that this will probably make things even worse in the long run.

"More information" is the liberal technocrat's fantasy of political motivation. As if we just need one more effort because the last ones worked out so well. Russia, Corruption, Collusion - all these are excuses to not do things, not motivations to begin them. America needs chemotherapy - long, protracted, and painful, and not this deus ex machina nonsense that no one cares about. — StreetlightX

Talking about fantasy, it seems to me just as fantastical that such a "painful therapy" will be adopted until things have really crashed and burned.

Unfortunately the impeachment inquiry is what you have to do to gain access to documents and educate the public.

The taxpayer has a right to know.

It's a win win. If he survives, it will help make an informed choice for 2020.

It’s a win win. If he survives, it will help make an informed choice for 2020. — 3017amen

If he survives and is re-elected, it might make impeachment much harder in his second term, and consequently allow for even more egregious transgressions. So perhaps more like a risky gamble than a win win.

Yes... I think the Republican voters deserve a better alternative and although not impossible, the impeachment inquiry may be enough to tip the scales in the direction of a Republican primary.. .

Being a modern independent myself, I would certainly consider a moderate Republican ....
https://fortune-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/fortune.com/2019/04/22/republican-presidential-candidates-2020/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15699644718972&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Ffortune.com%2F2019%2F04%2F22%2Frepublican-presidential-candidates-2020%2F

Like John Kasich:
"Tariffs are a bad idea. Debt is a bad idea. Family separation is a bad idea. Demonizing immigrants is a bad idea. And breaking down our alliances is bad too,” Kasich told the AP in December.

When the AG acts as Trump's personal lawyer the result is de facto obstruction of justice, for nothing the president or his administration does can receive impartial review. — Fooloso4

Today's installment.

How do you post a link that has the text changed?

That is from this:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/barr-went-to-rome-to-hear-a-secret-tape-from-joseph-mifsud-the-professor-who-helped-ignite-the-russia-probe?ref=home

to this: Today's installment.

It's just a URL. You know how to post URL's, right?
Anyway, more to the point - this entire outreach from the Trump administration is meant to 'prove' or 'demonstrate' that the Mueller investigation really was a false flag operation - that it was a conspiracy that was driven by the Democratic National Committee and various 'deep state' forces inside the intelligence community to frame Donald Trump. Trump has been desperate to show that the whole report really was, as he keeps saying, a hoax and a witch hunt. This is why he says that the 'server with Hillary's missing emails' is 'in the Ukraine.' It's really fringe Alt-right nonsense.

It's impossible to know whether he really believes this, or whether he is depending on making his supporters believe it - but I think it's the former. Trump has a very poor grasp of facts and zero ability at self-criticism or self-awareness.

In any case, I think once the full extent of this lunatic quest to discredit the FBI comes out, there will be criminal charges against some of the players. In other words, having gotten through the initial Mueller report, he's found a way to actually get himself sunk by it.

From that article:

"A source in the Italian Ministry of Justice, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told The Daily Beast that Barr and Durham were played the tape. A second source within the Italian government also confirmed to The Daily Beast that Barr and Durham were shown other evidence the Italians had on Mifsud."

How do we know this is true if the sources will not reveal their identities?

I agree with @StreetlightX that this is something like worrying about the moral character of the captain of the Titanic. It is Trump's overt actions that need to be countered.

Cool, got it, thanks.

I really don't think you've been reading what's going on. And that's perfectly fine - my family gets really annoyed with me for being obsessive about this story. But it's unbelievable, what's coming up about Trump, if you do follow the coverage in what he calls 'fake media'. The depths of duplicity, mendacity, corruption and malfeasance beggar belief.

I don't think it is remotely feasible that Trump can stand for re-election next year, even if the Senate votes to acquit. And the hard-heads in the GOP must be seeing this. They can't let themselves be held hostage by the so-called 'base' at the expense of selling out every principle that the Republican Party is supposed to stand for. That's why I reckon Trump will be out of office before Christmas - they're going to need some clean air going into 2020.

It's true I haven't been reading much about what's going on. I hope you're right that Trump will go, but I'm not very confident about it. In any case I don't think Trump is the problem, but I do think he is exacerbating it, so I would be glad to see him gone. When you look at the unholy trinity of Trump, Morrison and Johnson it seems that such figures are symptoms of the entrenched disaffection of those who are coming to increasingly feel they are being marginalized.

This disaffection rises to the surface when things get tough and unstable and people begin to feel insecure about the future, and they look to nationalistic, tough-guy conservative leaders who promise to make their countries great again. So, even if Trump goes, someone of the like will probably step in to replace him.

Some observations.

-A double standard being applied to the law of Trump staying in office and near-certainty being unelectable rather than impeaching him.

and...

-Needs talk.

Anyone else notices this?

Well said Wayfarer, well said sir.

This fucking imbecile*.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/01/politics/new-york-times-trump-shoot-migrants-legs/index.html

*Dangerous imbecile*

Anyone else notices this? — Wallows

Yeah and also the 'Trump is only a symptom'. That's like saying 'a malignant tumour is only a symptom, the underlying problem is that you're alive'.

*Dangerous imbecile* — Wallows

Typical distraction tactic. Say something outrageous, get everyone enraged and arguing. He does it all the time, should be ignored.

These impeachment hearings are going to be the mother of all s***t fights.

Because there will be a trial in the Senate, Maw. I know you've got your mind made up about his guilt regardless of what the Senate will conclude. That is most likely not true of everybody, especially Republican voters — Benkei

Well if you don't see his flagrant misuse and abuse of the office, and various acts including his attempts to dismantle the Mueller investigation and investigate a political rival with the aid (and bribery) of a foreign government, or more seriously, the systemic creation of concentration camps for people of color, as justifiably impeachable offenses, then I simply don't know what else to tell you.

But for the thousandth fucking time, who cares about GOP voters? I mean god damn, a majority of them support and will vote for Trump even of he's literally standing on their heads crushing their skulls, so no one should give a shit how they will react to an inquiry or a failure to impeach (even though there has been an increased support among GOP voters for an impeachment inquiry).

Trump ought to be destroyed by political mobalization and bold, creative, and daring ideas - not this tinker-toy legal grace. — StreetlightX

Insofar as this "tinker-toy legal grace" fails to remove Trump from office, despite exposing additional maliciousness, criminality, incompetence and keeping it at the forefront of the news cycle, creating further public backlash to an already unpopular president while also shifting additional blame onto a GOP controlled senate leads to "political mobilization" that 1) votes Trump out of office (which can occur regardless of the inquiry) and 2) leads to seat gains in the Senate, and perhaps a blue turnover (unlikely without the GOP controlled Senate's compliance in acquitting Trump), then that seems like the ideal, yet certainly not unrealistic, outcome.

And let's face fact, just as there will be (potentially severe) backlash if Trump is removed via impeachment, there will undeniably be backlash and cries of conspiracy of a different name, if he loses the election. The long run is already fucked.

EDIT: Further, a failure to move forward with an impeachment inquiry signals to Trump that he can make additional attempts to illegally undermine political rivals and Democratic candidates potentially shaping the outcome of the election. The failure of the Democrats to start an impeachment inquiry against Trump after the Mueller report was a signal that he could continue to abuse the power of the office for self-gain.

Yep the pundits have used that word 'dangerous' to describe him ever since he was elected, now the reality is coming to pass. I'm watching it now...

Speaking of dangerous, referring to the Ukraine whistleblower he said, and I quote : " You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now."

The dude's got to go, he's embarrassing to our country

The real tragedy is that people have become desensitized to this sort of lunatic thinking of building moats around the border and filling them with alligators, shooting migrants in the legs, Jesus you get the point, I hope.

The dude's got to go, he's embarrassing to our country — 3017amen

:pray:

Of course I do. But what has the Trump presidency been but a parade of outrages right from the start? That's part of his shtick - he can get away with anything, so he uses that to say things and do things which no right-thinking public official would ever do, and then he has these hordes of hypnotized zombies ('the base") who follow along saying Trump! Trump! It's like a horrible b-movie nightmare.

Hopefully the impeachment process is going to start to put an end to the whole circus.

I'm sort of conflicted here. Desensitized electorates dont bode well for the future of a nation's democracy, despite it being the only defence mechanism against blatant crazy rhetoric.