You cannot divorce gender from sex; but you can "not conform" to sex roles (e.g. not giving birth, not breast feeding, no reproducing, etc). — Swan
P1: All males and females must contain all the necessary biological attributes to be 'male' and female'.
P2: All 'males' and 'females' contain the necessary biological attributes needed "to be" 'male' and female'.
P3: A male that lacks necessary attributes necessary for to be considered 'female' is not a female.
P4: A female that contains both necessary attributes of both 'female' and 'male' is neither male or female, but intersex. QED. — Swan
"Transgenders" conform via phenotypic necessary biological sex attributes (i.e. imitation) or by removal of the penis/breasts - both internal and external organs and tissues, cosmetic facial and body masculinization/feminization surgeries, etc. — Swan
You cannot divorce gender from sex — Swan
Gender refers to the attitudes, feelings and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person's biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as gender‐normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations constitute gender non‐conformity.
My understanding is that what you are talking about is being transexual, not transgender. — bert1
I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to divorce gender from sex. — Michael
There certainly is a connection between the two, but that's not to say that someone who's sex is female cannot have a male gender. — Michael
A "pre-op" transsexual (i.e. transgender) isn't a trans. — Swan
By whom? A cursory bit of googling will turn up overwhelming evidence of different usage. — bert1
I am not right wing but this stuff is ridiculous. — Swan
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'
I'm saying we should call "bearing" or "psychological gender", from any of the sociological stuff, which I'm saying should be the proper referent of "gender" or else "sociological gender" if needed to disambiguate. — Pfhorrest
Of course the psychological thing about how you feel about the sex of your body is related to the sex of your body, which seems to be your whole point. — Pfhorrest
But you're calling that thing "gender" (without disambiguation) andthen using that to argue that gender isn't about sociological stuff, when my whole point is to be careful to distinguish the two different things so that people don't do exactly what you're doing. — Pfhorrest
I'm fairly far to the left. My lefty peers don't approve of my views. Much of this topic (gender vs sex) seems to have gone down the rabibit hole where,
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.' — Bitter Crank
This newer sense is "gender" as meaning a psychological property of how you feel about the sex of your body, e.g. if you would not feel comfortable with a male body and would feel comfortable with a female body then your "gender" is "woman", if vice versa it's "man". — Pfhorrest
Let's hope Swan's attempt sidetrack this fine topic does not succeed. This forum is in desperate need of some decent analysis - and of posts that do not hide in quotation marks. — Banno
It seems like avant-garde gender and sex theorists/activists are reacting to the most conservative picture of masculinity and femininity. The stereotypes of Madison Avenue and Hollywood define real men as tough and insensitive and real women as soft and caring. This old-fashioned and fading view of gender and sex has never typified real people. — Bitter Crank
1. Your physical sex
2. Your mental feelings about your physical sex
3. Social stuff about role and presentation that is associated with sex
I'm saying that while (3) is the original referent of "gender", for trans purposes it's often not the important thing; rather, (2) is the important thing. — Pfhorrest
So a cis man is:
1. Born physically male
2. Prefers to stay physically male.
3. Might have any social identity, role, or presentation. (Probably "masculine" ones, but not necessarily.)
Kinda prefer to be more physically female, but not entirely or very urgently (less body hair, different body fat, vag would be nice, but penis is okay, tall and strong is nice). — Pfhorrest
My question regarding whether gender is a social construct like money is to ask whether hunter-gatherer societies have gender roles and whether this is tied to the individual's biological sex, and if so what sort of exceptions exist. — Marchesk
This isn't about me. — Pfhorrest
I thought this was a progressive community — Pfhorrest
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