Tell that to the thousands of families of Kurds, to whom the US has broken their promises (granted thanks to their fighting alongside US forces to eliminate ISIS), and will now die.

Tell that to the thousands of families of Kurds, to whom the US has broken their promises (granted thanks to their fighting alongside US forces to eliminate ISIS), and will now die. — StreetlightX

The tragedy unfolding in our departure is not lost on me and my heart breaks for everyone caught in the middle of this nightmare. I am not looking to get into a "suffering" contest of who will suffer more. I am looking to support a responsible way out.

What do you mean by a "constitutional crisis"? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

It’s a front page story on practically every journal of record today. The crisis is that the President has declared that he will not recognize the constitutionally-mandated investigation that is being carried out in response to the ‘whistleblower’ account of his alleged criminal acts. He is basically saying the Congress has no authority to conduct the investigation. Even Nixon didn’t do that, and what Trump is accused of is much worse than what Nixon resigned over. So it’s an impasse - a crisis. He’s essentially declaring himself above the law.

I am looking to support a responsible way out. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Ok but this aint it.

I think we are witnessing the strength of our governing, living Constitution. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

You would be, if the impeachment process wasn’t being stymied. As it is....

. I am looking to support a responsible way out. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

What Maw said. And this isn't a 'suffering contest'. That implies some kind of game. This isn't a game. People. Will. Die. Your allies will die. Don't obfuscate that with gaming metaphors to make yourself feel better.

I'm inclined to think there is no responsible way out in this so situation. So long as stability was given by the presence of US troops, I don't think there is an ethical way to withdraw. It's analogous to disbanding a security force and a rule of law to allow friends to be robbed.

Being the closest thing to God in the area of foreign policy comes with responsibility. In these circumstances, the tragedy is entirely lost. To withdraw is to literally abandon your friends because there is work and risk involved to have their back.

I am glad he is backing down from the world scene as well I just wonder how much chaos will come with us pulling back. If Turkey is any example I am afraid of who or what ideology will fill the — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I dont think it will be much worse than it has been.

The only real difference to me is that Trump speaks with no filter, which admittedly has its faults but at least I know he is being honest — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Not sure how to interpret this. You realize that he’s not what you’d call an honest man, don’t you?

We shouldn’t conflate the PKK, a terrorist organization , with the Kurds, an ethnic group. Turkey’s enemy in this operation is former, not the latter.

There are two competing stories going on here, as usual.

So think about it from the other side. There was a separatist uprising for the past few years in southern Turkey along the Syrian border and beyond. According to Pompeo, it’s a terrorist threat. The Turkish offensive is against this threat. If we are to believe Pompeo, American soldiers were in danger. Trump gave no green light or go ahead to Turkey, only to pull American soldiers out of the area.

Considering this, Leaving American soldiers in the area to help Kurdish separatists fight off a Turkish invasion would be a horrible mistake.

Sure this affair has the potential to be disastrous, but the world is watching.

We shouldn’t conflate the PKK, a terrorist organization , with the Kurds, an ethnic group. Turkey’s enemy in this operation is former, not the latter. — NOS4A2

You're not that naïve, so I guess you're now also spreading propaganda for Erdogan? I would have guessed you'd be against someone with an Islamist agenda.

So think about it from the other side. There was a separatist uprising for the past few years in southern Turkey along the Syrian border and beyond. — NOS4A2

The conflict between the Turkish central government and the Kurds is older than "a few years". And it was Erdogan's government that escalated it for political gain (it worked, too).

If we are to believe Pompeo, American soldiers were in danger. — NOS4A2

What danger would that have been?

Trump gave no green light or go ahead to Turkey, only to pull American soldiers out of the area. — NOS4A2

Which is, of course, the same thing.

Considering this, Leaving American soldiers in the area to help Kurdish separatists fight off a Turkish invasion would be a horrible mistake. — NOS4A2

What do you mean "help"? The soldiers only prevented the Turkish military from shelling the area due to the danger of friendly fire. They were entirely a blocking force, not intended to fight anyone.

So what's the "horrible mistake" here?

Not sure how to interpret this. You realize that he’s not what you’d call an honest man, don’t you? — praxis

I think he refers to the stance that it's better to have a politician that is openly lying than one who is secretly lying. Essentially, a bunch of the American population has become so cynical about politics, or perhaps humanity in general, that they think everyone is a lying, racist, sexist asshole, they're just all hiding it. Since Trump isn't, he is therefore more honest.

Trump is incapable of telling truth, because he’s lost all connection with it, or the ability to discern it, or to care about it. As a consequences, he’s literally beginning to drown in his own bulls***t, the only question is how many Republican congressmen are willing to help him stay afloat.

Mike Pompeo in interview:

The White House made a decision yesterday: They issued an extended letter talking about this process that the House is engaged in, making clear that the White House's view is that this is not a legitimate impeachment proceeding,

The point is that it is a legitimate impeachment proceeding. It’s not a matter of opinion or individual judgement. It is being conducted exactly according to the constitutional requirements given the circumstances; but it is typical of this administration to lie about it, to cast doubt on the legitimacy of a legitimate process. And ‘the base’ will believe this to be the case.

Trump is not worried about the Islamic State prisoners being held by the Kurds, being released now. Because he says they will go back Europe where they came from and blow themselves up there so Americans dont need to worry now, because Europe will take the flack and we know what he thinks about Europe these days.

It’s a front page story on practically every journal of record today. The crisis is that the President has declared that he will not recognize the constitutionally-mandated investigation that is being carried out in response to the ‘whistleblower’ account of his alleged criminal acts. He is basically saying the Congress has no authority to conduct the investigation. Even Nixon didn’t do that, and what Trump is accused of is much worse than what Nixon resigned over. So it’s an impasse - a crisis. He’s essentially declaring himself above the law. — Wayfarer

It comes as no surprise that the news headline follows the same narrative that has been asserted since President Trump won the 2016 election. I don't anticipate that changing, not until the next election in 2020.
As far as the assertion that our country is experiencing a "constitutional crisis"? I just don't see how the Constitution is at an "impasse".
Our country is divided today and much like a blended family, there are going to be times of popularity for one side or the other. That is what I see happening with our current political climate. We will get through this"impasse" coming out stronger and wiser than when we got in. Hopefully having learned the lesson are current mistakes are teaching us.

Ok but this aint it. — Maw

Fair enough.
What is?

What Maw said. — StreetlightX

Don't ride on Maw's coattails, especially when his response is without suggesting solutions.

What is the solution?

What this isn't a 'suffering contest'. That implies some kind of game. This isn't a game. People. Will. Die. Your allies will die. Don't obfuscate that with gaming metaphors to make yourself feel better. — StreetlightX

Fer ducks sake Streetlight, the very suggestion that I view death as some kind of "game", after knowing me over a decade leaves me speechless. My point is that the death of any human is one too many.

I dont think it will be much worse than it has been. — frank

It is a move not without concern.

Not sure how to interpret this. You realize that he’s not what you’d call an honest man, don’t you? — praxis

I realize he is no Angel but not an "honest" man? Compared to whom?

Trump

Obama

Of course this requires some trust in politifact, which you may not have.

You're not that naïve, so I guess you're now also spreading propaganda for Erdogan? I would have guessed you'd be against someone with an Islamist agenda.

Millions and millions of Kurds live in Turkey and call it their home. Turkey has not been kind to the Kurds, sure, but they are not the enemy in this battle, despite your propaganda.

The PKK is a terrorist organization, at least according to Turkey, NATO, the EU, the US, and UK.

The conflict between the Turkish central government and the Kurds is older than "a few years". And it was Erdogan's government that escalated it for political gain (it worked, too).

It’s not so simple. I’m speaking about the current rebellion at the southern border.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish–Turkish_conflict_(2015–present)

This is a far-left rebellion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_United_Revolutionary_Movement

This isn’t our conflict, and we cannot align with terrorist forces as they attack our ally.

What do you mean "help"? The soldiers only prevented the Turkish military from shelling the area due to the danger of friendly fire. They were entirely a blocking force, not intended to fight anyone.

The consequence of American soldiers being killed in this Turkey-PKK spat would be worse than Benghazi, with far worse geopolitical implications.

It is a move not without concern. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Are we still talking about a broader isolationism, or Turkey's problem with its border?

What is the solution? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

To a problem wholly precipitated by a weak, ignorant, president who, probably with little to no understanding of the strategic situation in Syria, rolled over like bitch after Turkey's president - incidentally a hugely corrupt autocrat-in-the-making (the kind of friends that Trump keeps) - made a single phone call, against any advice from his own military and intelligence service - and his own party no less - and whose subsequent actions even have US special forces stationed in Syria feeling ashamed of themselves? I dunno, maybe a bullet to his fucking head would be nice. In lieu of that, maybe taking a stand against an Islamist nationalist like Erdogan and supporting US allies with a minimal - almost nominal - investment of troops in order to prevent already occurring civilian deaths that might well displace nearly 300,000 people as a result, while at the same time probably precipitating the release of ISIS prisoners?

Fucking coward of a president. Even Israel - Netanyahu specifically - thinks this is horrible.

If I was the commander in chief i would simply not move forward with a decision that would allow thousands of our allies to die

Of course this requires some trust in politifact, which you may not have. — praxis

I trust very little of either man.

Are we still talking about a broader isolationism, or Turkey's problem with its border? — frank

I think the US pulling back on the world scene is necessary and might I add STRONGLY suggested by almost every allied country represented here at TPF for years and some for over a decade.

Turkeys problem with it's border is well known amongst its residents, including members here in the forum and I wonder why they are not being looked to for help the way the USA has been.

I do wonder what the word on the street is there about the USA pulling back. Is it simply to watch and critique without offering to take the lead?

To a problem wholly precipitated by a weak, ignorant, president — StreetlightX

The "problem" did not begin with this President, he is trying to solve the"problem".
So before we go any further, let us first establish that the drawdown is not the "problem" but rather an attempt to end a war. The "problem" shifts with each administration and this one is not immune to that process.

Turkeys problem with it's border is well known amongst its residents, including members here in the forum and I wonder why they are not being looked to for help the way the USA has been.

I do wonder what the word on the street is there about the USA pulling back. Is it simply to watch and critique without offering to take the lead? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Don't know. Part of isolationism is not caring until there's a need to nuke somebody.

an attempt to end a war. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

By enabling a literal military invasion? Sorry Tiff, this is too stupid.

If I was the commander in chief i would simply not move forward with a decision that would allow thousands of our allies to die — Maw

Nobel ideal but perpetual war is not something that this administration is in support of. Given that knowledge, how do you suggest us pulling out?