Tell me the story of how these properties inhere in a quale? — fdrake
And why are we saying "what it's like" rather than "what it is" to be a bat? — Harry Hindu
I still don't see the need for the term, "like".Because they are different questions. The first is about consciousness, the second is about the definition of 'bat'. — bert1
I don't understand Nagel's question. Is he asking what it is to be the whole bat, or just it's brain, or what?
— Harry Hindu
The qualitative properties of the bat's experiences, from the bat's perspective. — Terrapin Station
As far as terms like “redness”, I don’t know why that has to evoke any kind of essentialism. Does “color” evoke that same essentialism to you, or “appearance”? — Pfhorrest
isn't identical (as in literally the same thing) to the shape of the table in your experience — Terrapin Station
What I asked about has nothing to do with the underside of the table. — Terrapin Station
Your reading comprehension problem here: somehow you read me as implying something about "physical" versus "nonphysical." I didn't imply anything about that, and my comment has nothing to do with that. — Terrapin Station
It's just the qualitative properties of your experiences. You must have qualitative properties to your experiences. — Terrapin Station
lol - you're not going to say which paper that was supposed to be? — Terrapin Station
For Christ's sake, stop answering everything by telling me what you didn't mean, it's not a fucking guessing game. If you didn't mean the thing I interpreted you as saying, why can't you just say what you did mean in response? What on earth is prompting you to give half a response all the time? — Isaac
Do you agree that the shape of the table, as a property of the table, is different than the shape of the table in your experience or as part of your perception of the table"? — Terrapin Station
Especially when the aim is explaining something to you that you apparently do not understand/apparently are not familiar with. — Terrapin Station
In a discussion, you'd not just ignore it and ask your own question and then get pissy about not moving on until you've answered the first question. That's rude behavior, not a discussion. — Terrapin Station
"Is not technical talk" in no way amounts to "does not make sense in terms of conscious experience" — Terrapin Station
And I did. No. The shape of the table isn't experienced as a totality. — fdrake
Again, this is a problem, because it suggests that you do not understand what I'm asking. I'm not asking anything about a "totality." That's completely irrelevant to what I'm asking you. — Terrapin Station
Or in other words, there's a common view that there is a table, but you don't literally have a table in your perception--that is, your perception is not made out of wood, you can't set a coffee cup on your perception etc. as you can with the literal table. — Terrapin Station
A common view is that there's some shape to the table, as a property of the table (whether we're talking about a "totality" of the shape of the table or not--that doesn't matter), AND that that shape of the table, as a property of the table, is different than the shape of the table as you experience it, or via your perception. — Terrapin Station
I'm baffled about how Isaac and fdrake manage to not understand it. — Pfhorrest
You thinking we are implying those unexamined assumptions that we explicitly deny implying is exactly what I mean about people thinking things other people are saying mean other than what they mean by them. — Pfhorrest
I don't think I'm baffled by this, because qualia talk has a set of base assumptions which are rarely examined; you have to "buy in" to grok them. — fdrake
But it's not that, is it? It's that: your theories make me nervous. Even the theories you dont realize you're employing. — frank
"There's some shape to the table, as a property of the table" - when you experience the table, are you saying you experience the shape of the table as a distinct part of the experience? When you experience and attend to your experience is the shape of the table distinct from the table? — fdrake
The only way for you to have the shape of the table as a property of the table in your experience is for your experience to be identical to the table--so that your experience is made of wood, can hold a cup of coffee, etc. — Terrapin Station
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