You have to explicitly tell the computer what to do at each step.

Execution of specific functions goes step by step. But what functions will run, with what parameters and when, can be triggered and varies relative not only to external events, but since the process is recursive, change of parameters and function branching may be triggered by the "thought" process itself.

How would you go about writing the actual instructions for feeling pain?

Is pain necessary for consciousness, self-awareness, or free will?

Definition is necessary so we know what exactly is it you are trying to say. Is there some argument I should address? I don't see it.

to understand — Zelebg

I've no trust in definitions, nor do I think them needed here.

Is there a sense in which the machine I describe understands? I don't see it. It's just replacing one string with another.

How does your AI learn language?


Oh, I see now where are coming from. I am talking about it in more abstract terms - what can and can not be done in principle. So in this example computer has already learned or has been programmed, and I don't want to go into those detail unless there is an argument it can not be done in principle. — Zelebg

I think that working out a structure for AI in principle is meaningless. You need to consider practice based tests like the Turing test. The advanced use of language is - as far as we humans know - essential for intelligence, so any 'principle' that does not answer how it is to be achieved in practice is suspect.

I am talking about the machine I described. Your marchine needs not to understand, mine does.

I think that working out a structure for AI in principle is meaningless.

It's not because there are arguments it can not be done in principle, on a PC.

The advanced use of language is - as far as we humans know - essential for intelligence, so any 'principle' that does not answer how it is to be achieved in practice is suspect.

I am not aware there are problems around AI learning to speak, are you referring to something specific?

This might be irrelevant, but my only objection is that this sort of thinking assumes the computational theory of mind.

In that case any argument against that theory should work against this machine as well. What is the best criticism for computational theory of mind? And someone would need to argue that, I can't argue against myself. Or can I?

5. Program B: consciousness & free will -> feeds into 6.& 2. — Zelebg

I'm not trying to explain anything until someone points to something that needs explaining. — Zelebg

I really like where you are trying to go, but I believe your premise is not only malformed but misguided. That is, your (circular) question is really asking for a definition of consciousness, and you are trying to imply the AI solution will not require qualia, just agency.

Before I take a stab at it, I'll ask you to clarify a few things:
1. what does 'free will' mean in your program? I suspect you are talking about a sense of agency, and I think that is where your system blows up. Unlike others, I don't expect self-awareness and agency requires qualia; however, I do believe it requires a holistic state of being which you will never get in any kind of conventional coding or AI systems.
2. How will your system be able to know to question/doubt it is consciousness, know if it is communicating with a sentient being or not, and know what any of that really means? I doubt qualia is needed for this line item, but you have to detail how you would do it (and let me shoot you down!) :grin:
3. how do you program it to have an ego "I" in all of its glory and ugliness, which is not what 'free will' is about?

1. Camera A: visual input extern -> feeds into 2.
2. Program A: subconsciousness & memory -> feeds into 3.
3. Display A: visual output inner -> feeds into 4.
4. Camera B: visual input inner -> feeds into 5.
5. Program B: consciousness & free will -> feeds into 6.& 2.
6. Speaker: audio output extern — Zelebg

Actually this looks like a visual recognition program more than a conscious computer. Some of the new mobile phones and computers have facial recognition software that will welcome you with a cheery "Hello" when it recognizes your face. And the steps are nearly the same.

1. camera picks up your face
2. camera software sends image to facial recognition software
3. 4. facial recognition software sees and scans image then looks for id in data base
5. facial recognition software finds id and decides to send authorize to user
6. speaker says "Hello"

My cell phone listens to me all the time, I think that most of us know this. I always talk about cats to my phone and it always shows nice pictures of them on the lock screen. But do not try to tell me that the bloody thing is doing it consciously, because that is not true.

You missed @Zelebg's magical module which your cellphone is missing:
5. Program B: consciousness & free will -> feeds into 6.& 2.

He's not going to tell you how he programmed that, though, until you pay the piper, which I think I've done. Now, we're hopping for more than crickets in return..

You missed Zelebg's magical module which your cellphone is missing: — Sir Philo Sophia

No, I did not miss it. I explained it.

Consciousness in living beings allows us to recognize things by comparing them to things we know. Once we have recognized a person we can decide to say hello or not.

no. that is pattern recognition, which current AI robots routinely do.

no. that is pattern recognition, which current AI robots routinely do. — Sir Philo Sophia

What is the difference?

do you not appreciate the difference between pattern recognition (e.g., an AI neural network detecting the presence of a orange) and the abilities human Consciousness?

1. Camera A: visual input extern -> feeds into 2.
2. Program A: subconsciousness & memory -> feeds into 3.
3. Display A: visual output inner -> feeds into 4.
4. Camera B: visual input inner -> feeds into 5.
5. Program B: consciousness & free will -> feeds into 6.& 2.
6. Speaker: audio output extern — Zelebg

Let us know when you've figured out how to implement 2 and 5.

do you not appreciate the difference between pattern recognition (e.g., an AI neural network detecting the presence of a orange) and the abilities human Consciousness? — Sir Philo Sophia

No, explain it to me please.

And then maybe you can explain why my telephone is not a conscious thing using Zelebg's method.

The best way to reply to someone is to select the text you want to reply to, then click on the reply button that appears.
IF for some reason nothing happens, try right mouse button click on quote button.

No, explain it to me please. — Sir2u

I think Zelebg will explain it to us when he replies. stay tuned...

I think Zelebg will explain it to us when he replies. stay tuned... — Sir Philo Sophia

So you don't have an answer, but I am wrong? :chin:

I already told you where/why I think you are wrong. "5. Program B: consciousness & free will -> feeds into 6.& 2" does not equal "a visual recognition program" and it is Zelebg job to explain to you why not, or your job to explain to us why you logically conclude they are equal or highly similar.

I already told you where/why I think you are wrong. "5. Program B: consciousness & free will -> feeds into 6.& 2" does not equal "a visual recognition program" — Sir Philo Sophia

In what way do you think it is different?

and it is Zelebg job to explain to you why not, — Sir Philo Sophia

But you are the one that said I was wrong, not him.

or your job to explain to us why you logically conclude they are equal or highly similar. — Sir Philo Sophia

I did, if you did not understand the comparison just say so.

1. Camera A: visual input extern -> feeds into 2.
2. Program A: subconsciousness & memory -> feeds into 3.
3. Display A: visual output inner -> feeds into 4.
4. Camera B: visual input inner -> feeds into 5.
5. Program B: consciousness & free will -> feeds into 6.& 2.
6. Speaker: audio output extern
— Zelebg

Let us know when you've figured out how to implement 2 and 5.

Why is that a problem?

And then maybe you can explain why my telephone is not a conscious thing using Zelebg's method.

Most importantly, or for a start, it does not have the same hardware configuration.

Let us know when you've figured out how to implement 2 and 5.

Why is that a problem? — Zelebg

Because nobody knows how to implement 2 and 5, or even if it's possible to do so.

Because nobody knows how to implement 2 and 5, or even if it's possible to do so.

Not known is 'what' to implement, so 'how' is not even a question yet. But what I am suggesting here is both what and how to implement, and relevant part is hardware configuration, not software modules.

Not known is 'what' to implement, so 'how' is not even a question yet. But what I am suggesting here is both what and how to implement, — Zelebg

Ok. How do you implement 2 and 5?

Most importantly, or for a start, it does not have the same hardware configuration. — Zelebg

Does not have the same hardware configuration as WHAT?

Your idea of an conscious computer or a human being that has no hardware?

The example I gave you fits exactly to your specs, so what is the problem with it? Can you explain that to me?

I suppose it might be questioned what exactly should "Program A" be doing and what part of that should go onto inner screen


But what I am suggesting here is both what and how to implement, and relevant part is hardware configuration, not software modules. — Zelebg

Make up your mind, is it the software or the hardware that you think is important? Because, as the song goes, you can't have one without the other.

The example I gave you fits exactly to your specs, so what is the problem with it?

My 3. and 4. are hardware, yours software.

Make up your mind, is it the software or the hardware that you think is important?

Hardware. The first sentence you quoted does not contradict that.

Ok. How do you implement 2 and 5?

You think the problem is 2. and 5. and I say the so called 'hard problem of consciousness' is 3. and 4., which needs to be implemented with some kind of display / camera system, rather than by any kind of software algorithm.

You think the problem is 2. and 5. and I say the so called 'hard problem of consciousness' is 3. and 4., which needs to be implemented with some kind of display / camera system, rather than by any kind of software algorithm. — Zelebg

You said you offered suggestions on how to implement 2 and 5. I didn't see them. Changing the subject doesn't answer my question. How do you implement 2 and 5?