Can anyone defend the assertion of this intrinsic value life is supposed to have? — DingoJones
Why is my position, that the value comes from some kind of merit rather than from the life itself, the wrong one? — DingoJones
My only real problem with the death penalty is the risk of a false conviction. — DingoJones
The capacity to value - select, interpret, relate to - and, thereby, to be valued for (e.g.) following fighting feeding fucking etc seems intrinsic to life itself — 180 Proof
You set up two possibilities: Life having intrinsic value (it being sacred) or life having value through merit (for society at large). My purpose (and conviction) was to deny both of them as a source of value, but I was still trying to answer the question how a life may have value. In my view, the only way anything can have value is as an object towards a subject. “Self subject” as you call it, someone appreciating himself as an object is one possibility, so it does address the question.I had included a caveat, the subject is society at large. So your points about the “self subject” or “someone subject” dont really address the question. — DingoJones
Broadening the scope may seem irrelevant to your question, but I did it to illustrate the nature of value. There is nothing fundamentally different about valuing a life and valuing anything else.Also, you end up broadening the scope to include the value we place on anything at all. Of course you are welcome to do that but it negates my question, its moot at that point isnt it? — DingoJones
The coma person can have no value when the intrinsic value of life is denied. That person, or rather that thing, can have no value for anyone for what it is. Someone may think it is valued when confusing it with the person it used to be or for having the false hope that it will wake up, but it is hardly possible to value the coma person for just what it is. (Unless you want to imagine some perverted reason.)Also, your last sentence contradicts at least some of what you said. By your own standards that person in a coma can have value to someone else, could it not? It cannot also be true that the coma person has no value — DingoJones
The coma person can have no value when the intrinsic value of life is denied. That person, or rather that thing, can have no value for anyone for what it is. Someone may think it is valued when confusing it with the person it used to be or for having the false hope that it will wake up, but it is hardly possible to value the coma person for just what it is. (Unless you want to imagine some perverted reason.) — Congau
Charles Manson convinced a bunch of impressionable, gullible and desperate young adults — Judaka
Charles Manson was literally convicted for directing the murders and not committing them. — Judaka
An example to finish: Charles Manson, kept alive for 40-50 years or whatever, provided with food and shelter, his health preserved, let out once a day for an hour, not allowed to do interviews anymore after a certain point, not allowed communication with the outside world...all to preserve his life because presumably that life has some intrinsic value that supersedes his dark deeds. — DingoJones
Did you chose Manson after considered thought, or was it just a quick choice? Because he obviously presents problems for people because his situation is so complex. — Brett
Inciting people to violence should be a crime — Judaka
I don't really understand your position, those who recruit others for violence are literally the people you should least want free. — Judaka
personally i would want manson to be free simply because of freedom of speach. he has a right to say or do anything he wants as long as he is not physically commiting violence against others himself. if people are being influenced by him then they are ignorant. it would be better to punish and educate them then to blame manson. otherwise its injustice against manson.
same goes for hitler. did hitler even kill a single person himself? mind you this case might be different because he had power over others. he could command someone to be killed for not listening to him. — OmniscientNihilist
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