• Wayfarer
    22.5k
    It's a bit broader than that - I wasn't referring to the specific bureaucrats involved in just those issues, but all of the financial, goverment and trade sector professionals, who are the ones most likely to suffer the negative consequences of the vote, and are also going to bear the brunt of having to do most of the work; rather the Exit voters in regional centres and rural England.
    There was a rueful comment on this the other day:

    Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers… left) “WTF?”
    Leavers “We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it”
    Remainers “But it’s not possible!”
    Leavers “The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.”
    Remainers “And do what exactly?”
    Leavers “Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it”
    Remainers “But it’s not possible!”
    Leavers “Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.”
    Remainers “But even you don’t know how!”
    Leavers “That’s your problem, we’ve done our bit and voted, we’re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.”
    Remainers “Shouldn’t you do it?”
    Leavers “It’s not up to us to work out the detail, it’s up to you experts.”
    Remainers “I thought you’d had enough of experts”
    Leavers “Remain experts.”
    Remainers “There are no Leave experts”
    Leavers “Then you’ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don’t want, we’ll eat you alive.”
    Remainers “But you don’t know what you want!”
    Leavers “We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.”
    Remainers “You’re delusional.”
    Leavers “We’re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn’t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don’t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.”

    By Ishtar Ostaria
    Source: ft.com
  • BC
    13.6k
    But I think this kind of attitude is actually leading to the endumbing of the populace. (That hardly applies to anyone here, but then, this is a philosophy forum, it is frequented by people who can put arguments together and write persuasively). But a lot of people can hardly be bothered concentrating long enough to read anymore. Everything is sound-bytes, pictures, videos - because it's easy, like today's food culture. Instead of having to carve a chicken, it comes in a neat little plastic tray, already crumbed. Meanwhile the world is changing at a faster rate that at any time in history, the amount of information is exploding, and the kinds of problems we're facing more complex than ever before.Wayfarer

    There is a very long tradition of dismissing the common man as too stupid to tie his own shoes. The elite of Britain could not cast enough aspersion on their 'common man' back in the 15th and 16th centuries. Oddly enough, when the stupid worthless yokels landed on these shores, and had to survive by dint of hard work and brains, they did.

    Oh, I know: a large number of people can't balance a checkbook; they read at a 6th - to - 8th grade level (not a very high level), don't know where their own state is on a map, don't know who their governor is, don't quite get why ground meat should be cooked to 168ºF, and so on and so forth. Or slice meat neatly off a chicken.

    But the thing is, one has to need to do these things, and has to have a reason to maintain the skill. I know very well educated people who are always getting lost driving because they have given up the use of maps. I haven't balanced a checkbook in years. (I do know how -- I just don't write checks anymore.) I don't think I've ever needed to identify my state on a map or identify the current governor. (but I could... if asked)

    As for slicing a chicken up, if one hasn't been taught how to do this, one probably doesn't know how. We aren't born knowing how to locate the hip joint of a bird.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Well, deciding whether to leave the common market is a considerably more complex matter than tying one's own shoes.

    I'm not actually dissing the working classes in any of this. I'm commenting on the uniquely difficult problems of the 21st century, such as this one. It's a comment about the demands of coming to an informed judgement about complex social and political issues, it's not tied to class.
  • BC
    13.6k
    They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time....Wayfarer

    Yes, I read that in the shout box, or wherever you posted it. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

    The Brexit situation reminds me of Prohibition: the people who voted for it in 1919 weren't the ones who were going to have to enforce the stupid constitutional amendment. The people who did have to enforce it had a range of responses, from enforcement with a vengeance to somehow never seeing alcohol being sold. I wish the implementors and writers of regulations, and so on all the success in the world. I still hope somebody figures out a way of aborting Brexit.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    thanks BC, that's my view also.
  • BC
    13.6k
    I'm not actually dissing the working classes in any of this. I'm commenting on the uniquely difficult problems of the 21st century, such as this one.Wayfarer

    Good. But life has been difficult for all classes of people for a very long time (except the small number of most pampered persons). People at all sorts of levels in society, dealing with varying levels of complexity, have had a tough time of succeeding.

    Yes: life is complicated, and is not getting simpler year in, year out. One of the reasons for this complexity is off-loading tasks onto people that have too many things to do--things like figuring out how to use the fucking clunky software that some autistic programmer produced, or figure out how to turn off all the new bells and whistles that some corporation decided to stuff their software with so it always looked new and "better" somehow... Microsoft and Apple are both guilty of this.

    A lot of our "complexity" is needless. That's a big fat glittering generality that should take a few threads to untangle.
  • Punshhh
    2.6k
    You guys appear to be working on the assumption that the EU (as a political organisation) is functional and useful, also that it is a benefit for the UK to be a member. There are many who disagree with this view and many arguments to the contrary.

    The EU does achieve the purpose for which it was set up(so far so good, however in the current climate I can see this changing) namely to bring the countries of Europe together with a joint purpose as an antidote to perpetual conflict.

    But in terms of politics it is disfunctional and dictatorial. No member can instigate change (except perhaps Germany, or France), all members are subject to a relentless implementation of a certain politic which is decided behind closed doors by a faceless beurocracy. Alongside this, which does not seem to be acknowledged here, is that there is a continuous project of further integration going on, both economic and political, "an ever greater union". However The UK has always been fundamentally against the political union, while in favour of greater (to a degree) economic integration. This split was inevitable due to these political circumstances, it is the EU bureaucrats who have been in denial of this reality. The UK, both as a government and as a people were never in favour of, or going to accept such political integration.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Granted, I'm not in the UK and most of the media I read were in the 'remain' camp. But I think the proof will be in the actual figures - employment, expenditure, turnover, and so on. And so far, I haven't seen any reports that the figures are favouring 'leave'. If I'm proven wrong, I will gladly change my view.
  • Punshhh
    2.6k
    Yes, it is my perception that outside the UK there is little mention of and it is largely not known about the downsides of the EU. In terms of economics I think it is better understood and I agree, it is a rocky road at the moment. But as I said there is a political dimension, which was the concern of those who voted to leave. During the debate leading up to the vote the debate was dominated by economic considerations, but towards the end there was a marked shift in focus towards the political implications which swung the vote.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    I think I understand the politics OK. I think the straw that broke the camels back was actually Polish tradesmen (so to speak).
  • Punshhh
    2.6k
    Yes, I do think that it was immigration which decided the vote in the end. As an issue it was probably more important than the economics, or politics of the situation. Only the other day there was a prominent politician criticising Angela Murkel(in reference to brexit) for outspokenly offering refuge for refugees a year ago, which led to a surge of up to a million arriving in Germany. For the UK it is the freedom of movement within the EU which was to much for many, not only people from all the new member states, but also potentially refugees and economic migrants who once present in Europe would move over here at a later stage. The scenes at Calais, which I have experienced myself were very provoking. I had personally experienced people in large numbers on the roads on the approach to the Channel tunnel and while parked at a hypermarket, a scary looking African man emerging from a hedge approaching us who was I expect looking to hide in our van.
  • BC
    13.6k
    I want to draw a comparison, and one I know is fetched from afar at this point--the establishment of a federal union among the 13 separate colonies which spawned the United States.

    Europe is some sort of (fairly clunky) federal system. Formerly sovereign (still sovereign, I guess) states agree to join a centrally administered European Union and give up some/most/all the prerogatives of independent states.

    The first effort to organize a union under the Articles of Confederation didn't work out all that well for us, and required a do-over (the constitution we now have). A Civil War was required to fully establish the principle of indissoluble union. Once in you stay in, period. Yes, slavery was an over-riding issue, but the southern states that would secede from the union weren't anxious to cooperate too much with each other in a lot of practical matters--like building what could have been a Confederacy-wide railroad system. Each of the southern states only built the railroad that it's richest citizens wanted, which wasn't much. The southerners didn't want a strong government vs. the local economic interests.

    All of this is compounded in Europe, given its much longer history and the clutter of distinct administrative and governing cultures and conflicting interests.

    Maybe the English Channel is part of the problem. Perhaps it gives Britain a sense of separateness from Europe it really shouldn't have. Geographical Determinism at work. We are an Island in ever so many ways. One would think, though, if the UK could digest an influx of Indians, Pakistanis, other Asians, Jamaicans, and various Africans it could also manage a batch of Catholic Poles. But... maybe not.

    The problem is more like the proverbially variable tide -- rising for some, sinking for others, with boats going up and down right next to each other. It seemed like the EU had done quite a bit to equalize the tide -- didn't it?

    The main thing is, once out of the EU Britain will have to deal with falling tides all by it's island self. Rising tides are of course easier to deal with, but if I were a Brit I wouldn't have counted on that.

    It's not too late. You haven't left yet. You have not put the Brexit shotgun in your mouth and pulled the trigger... yet.
  • BC
    13.6k
    I feel the European/British unease at a sudden influx of distressed people into Europe. There are a LOT of people in distress around the world and mobility means that the "wretched refuse of teeming shores" can move from distant parts of the world and arrive on one's doorstep quickly and in quantity.

    Immigration can be a very good thing (all those immigrants coming to the US, for instance) and Europe is scarcely reproducing it's workforce on its own. Get busy, you lazy heterosexual Caucasians, or somebody else will do your reproducing for you.

    It does need to be controlled, however, closer to the source. The developed countries don't seem to understand that Lebanon and Jordan need assistance in taking in and keeping many more Syrian refugees than Europe was ever thinking of taking in. (Saudi Arabia, for instance, has taken in... how many?)
  • mcdoodle
    1.1k
    A reminder: I voted Leave. And I claim to understand economics too :)

    The short-term economic impact of the brexit vote has been minimal. An odd thing abourt the 59bn figure being talked about today is (a) it's just another future forecast, over several years; (b) it treats the impact of the fall in the value of sterling straight after the referendum vote as 'an effect of Brexit'. Sterling needed to fall anyway, say many commentators.

    There will be an adverse economic effect next year - of uncertainty not precisely of Brexit.

    The leading parties were all, and still are, led by supporters of Remain, or equivacators like Labour. So they are struggling to find a direction. Obviously I'm waiting for the call!

    I think the EU is too large, has become dysfunctional and imposes a German view of macroeconomics on other countries to whom it's disadvantageous.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    I'm sure you do, McD. There are differences of opinion in my immediate family, although for us it's purely academic as we're not Brits. I understand the contra EU arguments but I still can't see it as a good bet. Time will tell. I also really do feel for everyone involved in the immense problem of displaced people. Here in Oz, the conservatives stopped the people-smuggling trade, but I'm very aware of the suffering involved (and I donate to UNHCR monthly).
  • Punshhh
    2.6k
    I was a reluctant remainer, this is due to my planning to live in France in a decade or so. Although I largely agree with your assessment. I would say though that economic considerations were not on the mind of those who voted to leave, or I suspect on the mind of the remainers. I am a polling officer in Suffolk and around here the consus from the people who came into the poling station was that they are happy to take an economic hit for the political benefits of leaving the EU.
  • Punshhh
    2.6k
    Yes, I've heard about the problems with migrants in Australia. Curiously the boat people who were housed on Naoru are now going to be accepted into the US.
  • Robert Lockhart
    170
    Aside from the fact that the impetus for a UK referendum on whether to continue with EU membership was provided by neo-Thatcherites - who had, ever since the regnum of Marg Thatcher, preserved a visceral antipathy bordering on hysteria towards an institution they perceived as subordinating national sovereignty and who privately greeted the relatively recent influx of European nationals into the UK as ‘Manna from Heaven’ that could be manipulated in favour of their cause – aside from this, no UK politicians seem cognisant of the critical fact that this decision once finalised will be one inimical to a further plebiscite – It’s for ever! (Like perpetual Trump OMG!)

    In that respect, since the arguments advanced in favour of leaving the EU were demonstrably speculative – some would even say misleading - and since only now are the negative economic consequences of the decision becoming clearer it seems to me a perverse judgment that to provide the opportunity for a now more informed electoral decision would somehow constitute a retrospective subversion of the democratic will!

    In practice of course, the leading pro-brexiteers are to some extent aware of the negative consequences that inevitably must ensue following Britain’s economicaly illiterate descion to disengage from the world's largest economic unit – but they consider it a price that justifiably can be imposed on Britain’s poor in order to preserve their visceral ideological conceptions concerning what constitutes national sovereignty.
  • mcdoodle
    1.1k
    If you want to criticise an economically illiterate decision to separate, Robert, I think there's a premium on correct spelling.
  • Robert Lockhart
    170
    So - your auto-spell checker's better than me - ergo you win the argument!? - I'll need get me such an omni-factotum! :)
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