Islamic sociological problem or merely a Quran problem?

WiseMoron

I’ve been reading remarks and discussions regarding Islam. I’m not a very religious person or even a very spiritual one, but I feel like these “problems” associated with Islam is caused from a bigger problem than just from a complex religion. I think the problem is a more environmental and sociological problem than a religious one. What I mean exactly is that the problem isn’t the religious book called the Quran, but the societies and that the Quran is heavily integrated with the sociological systems of the society.

Islam has a history of violence and is currently having violence in present days; however, Christianity and other religions also have a violent history as well. Christians killed Jews just for being Jews and showing superiority, Muslims did the same to Christians and are doing it today. Religion had a violent past in general, so all religions can be dangerous if used the wrong way such as interpreting a religious text literally and very strictly. Both the Christian and Islamic holy texts view homosexuality negatively. Thus, both Christians and Muslims can be hateful and violent towards gays. My point is that Islam alone, not the interpretations of it, is no more dangerous than any other religion. All religions had a violent past and can be dangerous in the wrong use or way.

Islam is a newer religion than Christianity as well and it needs some more time to grow and change like Christianity did. Otherwise, Islam will die off and the people will prefer a different, and most likely, a new religion. The communities that are Islamic are behind most of the countries or communities that are Christian. These Islamic societies lack a good secular governmental system, resources and money, social systems (such as group therapy, lobby groups, or sport groups) besides religious ones, and diversity of cultures. If these Islamic communities improve, it will impact the religion called Islam.

Religion, of course, impacts the people of the society a lot, but the sociological systems and resources within a society affects religions as well. If you can change the sociological systems and resources of a society, it will not only change the religions, but how people treat the religions as well and their own selves. Thus, I think the best solution to fixing “radical Islam” is improving the society sociologically than philosophically. However, this is of course harder to execute than merely changing the Quran and the interpretations of it, but most Muslims wouldn’t want to make major changes to the Quran anyways, since it would imply that the Quran is heavily flawed. Also, improving the Islamic societies sociologically might persuade the people to treat Islam differently and not have it so heavily integrated within the Islam societies. In other words, try to make Islamic societies a more secular society without making major changes to the Quran.

The best way for the Islamic societies to improve is for them to improve themselves, not other countries fixing them, since it is an internal problem. Some help from other countries would help as well, but ultimately the problem is a sociological problem and if the people fail to fix the society, the society ought to fall and be reborn into another society. If Muslims are too ignorant to see that there’s a problem with their Islamic societies and not their Quran, then these societies will continue to have worse problems and people will suffer. Being ignorant of suffering is hard since you will see it around you when you live in a society; however, the problem is then, what caused this suffering? If USA keeps intervening Islamic societies, USA will be blamed for the suffering of Islamic countries/societies when in reality it would’ve happened without the intervention of USA.

So what do you think? You think USA should keep intervening Islamic societies? You think problems pertaining to Islam is more of a religious one or a sociological one? What do you think is the best way to help Islamic societies that are suffering?

P.S. If I posted in the wrong section, please correct it. I didn't see a section called sociology or anything pertaining to problems of a society in general, in my view. Also, I'm here more for discussing things than having a big debate, so keep that in mind. A little argumentation isn't a problem.

wuliheron

The gun and the money do almost all the talking worth listening to just about everywhere in the world and popular religions merely reflect their socio-economic political realities. In general, different religions support different things and Christianity's strong point is it supports capitalism which is one reason long avowed atheists in China are now converting to Christianity in record numbers. Islam has proven especially popular in the developing world using the argument that without something like sharia law neither atheist communism nor laze fare capitalism can provide the poor with anything like a real sense of community.

Notably, in the developed world once a country starts providing a comprehensive security net for their population people abandon organized religion overnight like yesterday's news and start to actually do a bit of charitable work to support their own governments. Meanwhile, in the US psychiatrists have long argued that fundamentalism of any kind meets their criteria for a mental disorder and, I would argue, that militant atheism and communism do as well. What is required to end the insanity is for governments to elevate their own populations or their populations to demand serious changes. In Sweden they made child abuse or even degrading a child in public illegal by public referendum without the politicians getting involved other than to offer different resources.

So far, 32 countries have made it illegal to hit or strike a child, while the wealthiest country in the world still has the worst social record in every regard and is by far the most religious in the developed world. Money is doing all the driving, while the fundamentalists keep arguing the rest of the world is their problem and the worst social problems inside the US are all in the Bible Belt. That's the same problem that was documented as the cause for the rise of Nazi Germany, religion and culture promoting everyone capitulating to authority whether it be religious or government.

WiseMoron

↪wuliheron

I actually lived in the Bible Belt mostly my whole life and I agree there's some social problems due to how the Christian churches affect the society and politics. I didn't know "Bible Belt" was a term. I didn't understand your first paragraph that well due to me not knowing a lot about politics and economics, but I do agree that guns and money are having too strong of a voice in our world.
I do disagree that religions necessarily support different economical theories or views because economics and religions seem like two very separate categories to me. However, you might have read, learn, or see things that I haven't done to lead to those conclusions. Also, religions have integrated in most societies, so they could also influence the economics of a society as well.

tom

What I mean exactly is that the problem isn’t the religious book called the Quran, — WiseMoron

You should read the Quran then.

WiseMoron

↪tom

Well, the Quran may have some bad things in it, but so do other religious texts from other religions such as the Christian Bible, which I pointed out in my post. So what is your point, exactly? That the Quran is worst than the Christian Bible and thus should be fixed? Even if that was true, which probably is, realistically the Muslims aren't going to be willing to change the Quran, which I mentioned why in my OP. If the Quran is changed, it would not only imply that the Quran is heavily flawed, but that a religion and a culture of people are flawed as well. These "flawed groups of people" don't want that sort of reputation, no one does.

Also, I think it's a bit naive that a mere change or deletion to some holy text will suddenly change a group of people, especially since they have been very influenced by the Quran. Do you really think all the problems to the Muslim people are all caused from the Quran? Do you really think the impact from the Quran is more important than sociological factors such as poverty, military - suppression, mass exploitation, environmental problems, and other problems?

Please enlighten me how changing or burning some foul book will change a group of people permanently. Or would it be much easier to just kill the Muslims for being delusional? Yeah that would be a much more realistic solution, wouldn't you agree, justified genocide at its finest?

My main point is, we can't just throw away Muslims, we have to change them. To change them through the Quran is harder than it seems to most people and I believe changing the Muslims through their actual society is more realistic and more likely ethical. Sociologically, the Muslims don't seem very advanced. The whole Quran is probably messed up since it's ancient and attempting to rewrite or edit a system that is already flawed seems very foolish to begin with, especially if the foundations of the system are flawed, which they probably are.

You may read and criticize the Quran all you want, but in the end you accomplish nothing of pragmatic significance to humanity.

wuliheron

↪WiseMoron

Fundamentalists of any kind tend to use the pulpit as a political stump. They tend to represent more rural views and how rural people everywhere have fended off the encroachment of civilization. Money does crazy things to people and the Beverly Hillbillies often don't thrive when money moves into their neighborhood and takes their land away by eminent domain or whatever. A simple memory centric systems logic similar to the way chickens organize and culturally enforced allows them to leverage any strength in numbers, but the price is steep by any measure. In the US now the rural populations are dwindling and Obama was elected when, for the first time, the urban population outnumbered the rural.

Benkei

So, you lived in the Bible belt and haven't read the Quran. What's your point again?

Unless you're going to offer me an extensive bibliography, from people having done some actual research or having real life experience in these Muslim societies, on which you've based your assumptions and conclusions, I'm just going to assume you don't know what you're talking about.

tom

Well, the Quran may have some bad things in it, but so do other religious texts from other religions such as the Christian Bible, which I pointed out in my post. — WiseMoron

ISIS follow the Quran and the Hadith to the letter. Saudi similarly, that is why you can marry a 6yr old there, and why gays, atheists, and sorcerers (i.e. foreign maids who the employer has tired of raping) get beheaded in public.

So yes, the Quran may indeed have some bad things in it.

Muslims aren't going to be willing to change the Quran, — WiseMoron

Well no, they aren't going to change the direct and infallible word of god. Hence to many, the world is flat, ants talk, and rape of infidels is fine. Oh yes, the Jews are worse than pigs and apes.

Please enlighten me how changing or burning some foul book will change a group of people permanently. Or would it be much easier to just kill the Muslims for being delusional? — WiseMoron

Nazism is banned.

tom

Unless you're going to offer me an extensive bibliography, from people having done some actual research or having real life experience in these Muslim societies, on which you've based your assumptions and conclusions, I'm just going to assume you don't know what you're talking about. — Benkei

You don't need to go to Saudi, Rotherham or Molenbeek will do.

WiseMoron

↪Benkei

I felt like you just read I lived in the Bible Belt and didn't fully read my OP. That's why you don't know what my point is, please fully read what I wrote in the OP, instead of getting fired up over nothing.

Nazism is banned. — tom

I was sarcastic.

So yes, the Quran may indeed have some bad things in it. — tom

So how should we change the Muslims?

If we can't change the Quran or kill all Muslims, where does that lead to?
A lot of people criticize Islam and Muslims, but no one seems to be productive in regards to offering a solution.

tom

So how you do we should change the Muslims? — WiseMoron

Muslims are permitted to rape in Europe. Famously one was let off raping a 10yr old boy in Austria. One was spared jail in UK because his plea of ignorance of the law regarding rape of a 13 year old girl was upheld. That particular rapist was born and raised in UK.

Start by holding them to the same standards as everyone else.

e.g. there are esimated 1000s of married Muslim children in Europe. Jail the rapists and put the children in care.

WiseMoron

↪tom

Start by holding them to the same standards as everyone else. — tom

That's obviously more of a sociological problem than a religious problem. This is one of my main points in the OP. The Islamic societies need more help and start to become more "secular" like other advanced societies.

Unless you're going to offer me an extensive bibliography, from people having done some actual research or having real life experience in these Muslim societies, on which you've based your assumptions and conclusions, I'm just going to assume you don't know what you're talking about. — Benkei

It's kind of hard doing research on Islamic societies since there's a war going on and some people would get killed for exposing information regarding Islamic societies. I honestly wish I could, but I'm unable to find accurate information of what life is like in an Islamic society in the middle east. Benkei your current demands are too high, even for a non-academic forum, but we do have our knowledge, philosophies, reflections of life, empathy, common sense, and ethics to help guide us to imagine what it's like to live in a Islamic society, sort of.

I have found a video in the past and photos of Islamic women showing signs that they want USA to leave their countries, though. Not because USA is evil, but because it's none of USA's business.

Barry Etheridge

↪tom

And there are dragons at the edge of the world and the Krampus will get you if you're alone in the woods at Christmas. Provide actual evidence for these allegations, and I mean actual court proceedings not hate filled propaganda from right wing newspapers!

Barry Etheridge

↪WiseMoron

Why must we change them at all. By what right do we presume to do so? Of the hundreds and thousands of mass shootings and bombings in the USA in this past decade less than 1% have any connection whatsoever with Muslims. If anyone has the right to be changing anyone shouldn't it be the other way round?

WiseMoron

↪Barry Etheridge

If anyone has the right to be changing anyone shouldn't it be the other way round? — Barry Etheridge

You have a point. Other societies need to adapt and become more acceptable of Muslims in order for there to be peace in the world and peace inside of Islamic societies. However, if Islamic societies have absolutely no problems, I doubt people would be complaining about them.

Like I said in my OP though, if the Muslims don't change their societies, their societies might perish and change into something entirely different.They may think there is absolutely no problems with their societies, but that's impossible because there is no perfect society in existence today, at least not by my standards.

I have said,

The best way for the Islamic societies to improve is for them to improve themselves, not other countries fixing them, since it is an internal problem. — WiseMoron

However, I see no harm in other countries maybe supporting/helping Islamic countries a little bit, but the people of the Islamic societies, themselves, are ultimately responsible for changing the society, not some other country. I feel like USA is trying to change these Islamic societies too drastically and is upholding too much responsibility in doing so. USA is a mere country and isn't the "police of this world." Another country ought to not have the ultimate responsibility for the existence of an established society and changing its cultures dramatically. We treat this principle with African tribes, why not Islamic societies? Like Star Trek would say, "It's against the prime directive."

BC

↪WiseMoron

Modernism, economics, and secular humanism have done, do, and will do to Islam what they have done to Christianity or most any other religion: They undermine it--which is generally a good thing. There are in the Middle East very, very lukewarm Moslems who do not give a rat's ass about Mohammed, just as there are very, very lukewarm Christians in the Bible Belt who don't give a rat's ass about Jesus. There are also atheists in Islamic countries, just as there are atheists in Christian countries. Whatever they believe -- Moslems, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Mormons, Zoroastrians, (or what have you) -- they are also members of communities with tribal, national, group, professional, family, and other loyalties. So an atheist Moslem in Damascus has problems unique to living there, just as an atheist Moslem in Jedda does, or an Atheist in West Fuck, Alabama or Atlanta has.

And there are TRUE BELIEVERS in every community, who can take selected texts -- religious and secular -- and make strait-jackets out of them. They are the biggest problem.

WiseMoron

And there are TRUE BELIEVERS in every community, who can take selected texts -- religious and secular -- and make strait-jackets out of them. They are the biggest problem. — Bitter Crank

At first I didn't understand how someone can make strait-jackets out of selected texts, secularly (metaphorically of course). However, the more I think about it, I guess it could happen, but I can't think of a good example. I guess being extreme in any ideology can be a dangerous flaw.

I think the problem you're trying to describe is one of being too technical and strict to the written law (holy or secular) and basing real life solutions or arguments off of them. In a way, there is no perfect system of laws, and leniency and flexible of any law is required for a community to have both justice and collaboration.

Modernism, economics, and secular humanism have done, do, and will do to Islam what they have done to Christianity or most any other religion: They undermine it--which is generally a good thing. — Bitter Crank

Good to hear... :)

tom

And there are dragons at the edge of the world and the Krampus will get you if you're alone in the woods at Christmas. Provide actual evidence for these allegations, and I mean actual court proceedings not hate filled propaganda from right wing newspapers! — Barry Etheridge

The British Muslim who was spared jail because he successfully pleaded ignorance that raping a 13yr old is against the law.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html

Muslim who had his conviction for rape of a 10 year old boy overturned because he could not be aware the 10 year old did not want to be raped.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html

The Muslims let off gang-rape because their wheel-chair bound victim was judged not to have tried to run away.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3831991/Wheelchair-bound-woman-gang-raped-six-migrants-Swedish-asylum-centre-asking-use-toilet.html

Here's the government report into the gang-rape of 1,400 underage girls by Muslims in one town in UK.

http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham

swstephe

There are a few things I learned from years living among Muslims. One thing is that most Muslims have never really "read" the Quran, (in the way we mean it). There are people who can recite the whole Quran from memory, verbatim, but don't even understand Arabic. You see, most Muslims don't speak Arabic as their native language. Take all the Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Pakistan, (Urdu), and Iran, (Farsi). Even those who speak Arabic, might find the 1400-year-old "standard Arabic" a bit difficult to understand. There were many times I managed to pull off a small trick. I would tell them a story, then reveal at the end that it is from their Quran. The Quran is held in such high esteem, it is often read as a ceremonial thing without thinking too deeply about what it says.

The Hadith are a different matter. A lot of "sayings" were collected, then rated according to levels of authenticity, but they were all preserved, even if what was said contradicted the Quran or each other or were simply absurd or political assertions. But the majority of Muslims I have known aren't really clear on which statements are from the Quran and which are Hadith, or whether they are simply traditions passed down from forgotten sources.

I think it is a common, but mistaken, stereotype that Muslim countries are regressive and backwards. Back when Europe was in its "Dark Ages", Muslim countries were more advanced in social and scientific progress. One of many factors that lead to the Renaissance, was the translation of Arab "Golden Age" documents. Many of the countries that currently get condemned as "backwards" got that way from the age of European colonialism. In fact, a lot of the evils cited above can be traced back to European laws that were introduced to those colonies. Even today, there are advances within Muslim societies that the west has yet to adopt, (I'm looking especially at my own country, which still has never had a woman president or even legal equal rights for women).

Today, the Quran has become more of an image of identity, like a national flag, (think of Jean Baudrillard -- the image is more important than the message, the copy is more real than what it represents). Destroying the Quran means to destroy an identity. You couldn't reform a country by burning its flag as much as re-invigorating the country around the ideals upon which it was based. Sometimes people forget the ideal and idolize and pervert the intent of the symbol of that ideal.

There are Muslim social reformers who have already making advances in Muslim society. Many of them tend to emphasize the Quran and reject or lower Hadith to secondary importance. I've attempted to change the minds of some more conservative Muslims to progressive ideas. I knew one woman who liked to claim all Israeli Jews were evil. So I would send them evidence to the contrary, like some Israeli Jews who go out into the olive orchards with Palestinians to act as human shields to prevent nearby settlers from shooting them, for example. I've found that every human, deep down, has the capacity and preference for acts of compassion. Fear and anger is easier, but positive emotions are ultimately stronger. People don't want to live in fear and hatred is exhausting. Everyone wants to live in peace and harmony.

Benkei

You don't need to go to Saudi, Rotherham or Molenbeek will do. — tom

Yeah, because of course Saudi Arabia is culturally the same as Molenbeek or Rotherham. There's no such thing as a monolithic Islamic culture or society, which makes these discussions meaningless. Knowing Dutch crime statistics on human trafficking of sex workers, the biggest problem is Eastern European and Russia. So this isn't something reserved for Muslims.

andrewk

Nazism is banned. — tom

Unless you live in Germany - where very special historical considerations come into play - that is unlikely to be the case where you live. Most Western countries are grown up enough to not have banned political movements, no matter how repulsive, as long as they don't clearly and strongly advocate violence. Have you checked the laws where you are?

In the early seventies we even had a Nazi party candidate standing in our electorate. I still remember my father trying to explain to incredulous little me why it was important that that was possible, regardless of how much we were repelled by their ideology.

Barry Etheridge

↪tom

So I say no right wing newspapers and you come up with 3 articles from that beacon of rationality the Mail? I think we have the measure of your commitment to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In all the three cases the decisions were made on points of law. All these decisions have precedents with non-Muslim defendants and even the Mail has to admit that Islam does not licence the crimes involved. You may argue, as many feminist and victim support groups do, that the justice system in UK is too lenient on sexual crime in general but that has nothing to do with religious favouritism.

The Rotherham situation is a hugely complex one with systematic failures in social services, police, and local authorities. If you are claiming that the perpetrators were acting in accordance with Islamic tenets then you've clearly lost the plot.

Barry Etheridge

Back when Europe was in its "Dark Ages", Muslim countries were more advanced in social and scientific progress. — swstephe

And would probably still be today if it hadn't been for the persistent oppression of the Moors in Western Europe and the Crusades. It is entirely the fault of Christian Europe that Islam put up its walls, withdrew into a Mediaeval image of itself, and ceased all progress. Then just as it began emerging from behind the walls, it faced another onslaught from the British occupation of Palestine, the creation of Israel, and deliberate destabilisation by oil hungry Western interests. There is little doubt that insular, fundamentalist Islam is the product of the West's determination to fulfil every prophecy about the Great Satan. We are reaping exactly what we sowed.

Islamic sociological problem or merely a Quran problem?

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