I learn in a dialectical manner — Wallows

Then just learn on this forum.

Assuming you want to learn philosophy as you're posting here, get acquainted with a philosopher or philosophical position in whatever brief way you enjoy, and then just post your thoughts here and discuss with others, or then jump into conversations already started.

If you are interested in your own reasonings, this is a good place to test if they hold up to scrutiny and to learn new things and issues to include in your reasoning.

As for books, there are lot's of collections of the key parts of "a bunch of philosophers", on one theme or another, that bring together the famous passages of the authors in question.

There are also philosophical traditions that value brevity and don't value much which order things are presented, such as the Tao and zen. In the western tradition there are famously brief authors such as Spinoza and Wittgenstein and famously disordered non-systemic writers such as Montesquieu and Leopardi. There are also modern "intense reasoning" essayists such as Russel. There's also a philosophy magazine (philosophynow.org) that provides short articles on philosophy subjects. There's a podcast History of Philosophy without Any Gaps (historyofphilosophy.net) that delivers the goods fairly impressively in roughly 20 minute episodes per philosopher (mostly).

If you like the Republic I can almost guarantee you will love Boethius.

Then just learn on this forum. — boethius

No shit. Been learning philosophy since 2005 on online forums. That makes it 14 years of interacting with people.

You know what makes me mad, apart from losing the old database, which I will buy back from Porat once I get enough funds. It's seeing people come and go. What the fuck is with the turnover rate here?

I recently ordered Kripke's Reference and Existence and feel like a fucking moron for not being able to even read some of it. Infuriating shit in my little world.

I have a question to you to just spark a debate. Is the number 2 an empty name, and if not what does it signify?

No shit. Been learning philosophy since 2005 on online forums. That makes it 14 years of interacting with people. — Wallows

Yes, my point was to just learn the things you want in the dialectical manner you prefer; but perhaps get more structured about it. I.e. do what your doing but at the next level of intensity and challenge.

You know what makes me mad, apart from losing the old database, which I will buy back from Porat once I get enough funds. It's seeing people come and go. What the fuck is with the turnover rate here? — Wallows

The old database is for sale?

I recently ordered Kripke's Reference and Existence and feel like a fucking moron for not being able to even read some of it. Infuriating shit in my little world. — Wallows

Kripke won't make much sense unless you are really concerned about how language works and the history of the problems he's trying to solve. They are all unsolvable in my opinion, but it's useful to be aware of them. What are called "solutions" are, in my view, just pointing out how previous solutions don't work, and none of them do and none can. Language is fundamentally mysterious to us, as is our process of decision, as is our consciousness and experience, as is our existence, as is existence in general.

It's easy to check this, in my opinion, in considering primitives such as "truth". We cannot define truth without claiming our process of definition is true, presupposing we already have the concept of truth to then claim each step in our definition process is true and likewise our conclusion about the truth is also true. There is simply no way to abstract out of our concept of truth. We can describe the operational affects of what deciding something is true or not-true would be, either for ourselves or for others, but this doesn't solve how and why we come to actually believe something is true or false nor again explain how we could attempt an operational definition of truth without following through with the predicted pattern of presupposing our reasoning process is true at each step and so on. The concept of truth is one of many primitives that "boot up" our entire reasoning ability, and that we can then turn our reasoning towards these primitives is a bizarre feeling but does not allow us to escape them.

I have a question to you to just spark a debate. Is the number 2 an empty name, and if not what does it signify? — Wallows

In sticking to the "rules and primitives" approach to language, we learn "discrete entities" in this primitive real experience associated with words way. However, there is no logical basis to assume discrete entities exist to begin with (indeed, we can follow discrete logical steps to conclude two is an illusion and all is one or then continuous flow of indivisible substance, quantum fields or contextual relations or whathaveyou, within which no discrete thing can properly be delineated from the whole, and then double back and claim our discrete step reasoning process was likewise equally illusion.) That we understand what two means does not guarantee that two discrete things actually exist, in substance or conceptually. So, two maybe a primitive that we understand, but all options are still on the table as to what individuality means from which there maybe only one thing ... or maybe two or more things. In terms of foundation of mathematics, the situation is even worse as there is nothing even to find.

My business with language is to understand it insofar as it is needed to increase the effectiveness of my political consequence (as the utility of language assumes other people are around), and again it is a mysterious process that words have consequence, but insofar as it is the case, they must be cared for.

I would suggest not looking at whatever happened for you or not in the education world as a measure of your situation.
That is not to say it does not matter. Every opportunity or its absence matters in some sense.
But you seem quick to blame yourself for the results of judgements beyond your power.
If things get better, it won't be from abasing oneself to unknown factors.
You have a good ear for a lot of words. Go with that.

No shit. Been learning philosophy since 2005 on online forums. That makes it 14 years of interacting with people.
— Wallows

Yes, my point was to just learn the things you want in the dialectical manner you prefer; but perhaps get more structured about it. I.e. do what your doing but at the next level of intensity and challenge. — boethius

Wallows has been asking for and receiving advice for as long as. He has been around long enough to know and predict all the likely replies.
You made some excellent points and suggestions but look at the response.
It's an addictive pattern.
The continual comparison. Now comparing turnover rates between the old forum and this one.
It is a small world.
People will come and go. Here's one example of what happens after a while:
People read and think about whether they feel like answering. They might pause to reflect on the purpose and value of so doing. The urge passes. People get fed up with same old, same old and take a break. But why then would anyone expect anything to be different on return. Why would anyone expect something other than the same people squabbling over their intransigent opinions ?
People might want to believe that they can make a difference and believe that they are different from all the rest.
What makes a philosophy forum special and a great learning experience?

1. I recently ordered Kripke's Reference and Existence and 2. feel like a fucking moron for not being able to even read some of it. 3. Infuriating shit in my little world.

4. I have a question to you to just spark a debate. Is the number 2 an empty name, and if not what does it signify? — Wallows

1. Why ?
2. Why ?
3. Why ?
4. Why ?

3. A wider perspective might help.
Integrating the bigger, real world so as to inspire more interesting questions.
Like how can people trafficking be more profitable than drug trafficking ? Track the human condition(s), the power, the real frustrations and obstacles.
The hidden worlds we know nothing about...

I found this latest episode on 'the Americas' an amazing learning experience. It links in with TPF discussions re Trump, capitalism, walls, what people risk to gain what they hope will be a better life. The dangers and hopes of a border patrol unit...windmills. A little girl who wants to learn.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000b1k0/the-americas-with-simon-reeve-series-1-episode-4

'Simon travels through Texas and down the length of Mexico. In Texas, Simon joins the US Border Patrol, who constantly pick up migrants who have illegally crossed the dangerous Rio Grande river in search of a new life in the United States. In the midst of this humanitarian crisis, Simon meets one woman who risks her life to take vital supplies across the border to stranded migrants on the Mexican side of the border in one of the most violent cities in Mexico. Much of the city of Reynosa is in the grip of a powerful criminal organisation, the Gulf Cartel. Simon visits the elite police force tasked with taking on an enemy that uses high-tech surveillance and an arsenal of US-manufactured weapons to control the border city. 

In southern Mexico, Simon visits Chiapas, a state with spectacular scenery, culture and history. Chiapas is also home to the largest indigenous population in Mexico, who trace their ancestry to the ancient Mayans. In the depths of the rainforest, Simon explores the Mayan city of Yaxchilan, once a thriving hub of a hugely sophisticated civilisation that prospered long before European settlers arrived in the Americas. Simon discovers that today’s indigenous communities have been marginalised, and many complain they are treated as second-class citizens in Mexico. Until the middle of the 20th century, the Lacandon people had little contact with the outside world. Most still live in the forest like their Mayan ancestors, but as Simon finds out, their beautiful home could be lost to logging and farming in less than a decade.'

Wallows has been asking for and receiving advice for as long as. He has been around long enough to know and predict all the likely replies.

You made some excellent points and suggestions but look at the response.
It's an addictive pattern. — Amity

Even if you are right, what is it to me? what is it to you?

If the content is not appropriate, it is a question for the moderators, and I need not trouble myself.

Perhaps some lessons take decades to learn.

Perhaps others have similar questions and may benefit in any case.

If indeed philosophy is an addiction here, how are we to intervene? If philosophy has failed, as you suggest is the case, perhaps we must widen our perspective, as you have suggested, and seek in poetry some help for this condition that seems persist indefinitely:

Always dear to me is this lonely hill I keep coming to
and this hedge and all its details,
hiding from me the ultimate horizon.
Yet crouched and staring, endless
is the space beyond, that humanless
emptiness, and that depth of stillness,
my thoughts drift; not far
the heart, the terror. Then, the wind speaks,
swaying the trees, and the
infinite silence and these rustling leaves,
I compare the two: I remember the eternal,
the seasons of death, the present,
the living, the sound of it. In this,
immensity, my thoughts start to drown:
and I drift off sweetly into this sea of thoughts.

This small "l'infinito" of Leopardi is perhaps a start to such recurring ailments.

Wallows has been asking for and receiving advice for as long as. He has been around long enough to know and predict all the likely replies.

You made some excellent points and suggestions but look at the response.
It's an addictive pattern.
— Amity

1. Even if you are right, what is it to me? what is it to you?
2. If the content is not appropriate, it is a question for the moderators, and I need not trouble myself.
3. Perhaps some lessons take decades to learn.
4. Perhaps others have similar questions and may benefit in any case. — boethius

1. What is it to me ? Initially I spent time and effort engaging with Wallows because I care and because I want to help. Like many others here. The thread that sticks in my mind, and where I realised the addictive pattern :
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/5018/musings-of-a-failed-stoic
There are more. Sometimes I re-engage; but always with the tired feeling that nothing much will change.
But that's just me.
As to what it might be for you, that's for you to decide.

2. The mods do a fantastic job. Previously there have been attempts to slow down any compulsive element by restricting amount of threads started.

3. Perhaps. But I am not sure this is about learning lessons. We can have knowledge about what might be a good path to walk but still lack the will or desire to follow it, for various reasons.

4. Yes. Others ( including myself ) can learn from either responding or by listening. That is one of the reasons I participate here. I have thanked Wallows before for provoking thought and interest.

If indeed philosophy is an addiction here, how are we to intervene? If philosophy has failed, as you suggest is the case, perhaps we must widen our perspective, seek in poetry some help for this condition that seems persist indefinitely: — boethius

I wasn't talking about philosophy being an addiction.
However, there are those who are, and admit to being, addicted to the forum. It's a bit like a soap opera.
Fascinating characters and story lines. No need to intervene. However, for some it can get out of hand and they either decide to take a break or provoke the mods into taking action.

I am not suggesting that philosophy has failed. Philosophy has as wide or narrow a perspective as one wishes. And that includes poetry. And much else besides.

I think it a pity that a continuing sense of failure in overcoming difficulties can be so overwhelming.
It can stifle creativity and drive.
It's kind of a vicious circle.

I have thanked Wallows before for provoking thought and interest. — Amity

No need to thank Wallows. It was only natural.

I think it a pity that a continuing sense of failure in overcoming difficulties can be so overwhelming.
It can stifle creativity and drive.
It's kind of a vicious circle. — Amity

Yes, dear Amity, it is very wallowsome. But, I find consolation in some threads hereabouts and the reading-groups. Perhaps everyone should wallow at least a little on this Sunday.

No need to thank Wallows. It was only natural. — Wallows

A Wallows might not need thanks but an Amity needs to send them; sealed with a K.I.S.S. :wink:

@boethius gave some good advice, including this:

There's also a philosophy magazine (philosophynow.org) that provides short articles on philosophy subjects. — boethius

Here's an example:

https://philosophynow.org/issues/134/How_To_Be_A_Stoic_by_Massimo_Pigliucci

Cheers, my love. :love:

Here's an example:

https://philosophynow.org/issues/134/How_To_Be_A_Stoic_by_Massimo_Pigliucci — Amity

More of a Cynic as of late. It oscillates, a lot between the two. And, I have interacted with Massimo, on Facebook, good guy. Likes ducks a lot for some reason.

More of a Cynic as of late. It oscillates, a lot between the two. And, I have interacted with Massimo, on Facebook, good guy. Likes ducks a lot for some reason. — Wallows

Well, not a lot of people know that :gasp:
I'm not on Facebook, do you think he would enjoy coming here as a guest speaker ?

Who would you choose to speak about being a Cynic ? Or could both be a topic for Massimo...
I've started a new thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/7047/arguing-with-guests-your-choice

Always dear to me is this lonely hill I keep coming to
and this hedge and all its details,
hiding from me the ultimate horizon.
Yet crouched and staring, endless
is the space beyond, that humanless
emptiness, and that depth of stillness,
my thoughts drift; not far
the heart, the terror. Then, the wind speaks,
swaying the trees, and the
infinite silence and these rustling leaves,
I compare the two: I remember the eternal,
the seasons of death, the present,
the living, the sound of it. In this,
immensity, my thoughts start to drown:
and I drift off sweetly into this sea of thoughts.

"l'infinito" of Leopardi — boethius

I love this. It reminds me of some other translated piece I read a few years ago.
Might even have talked about it on another forum. Unfortunately I am very bad at keeping records and can't for the life of me remember who or what. Most frustrating.

'The wind speaks, swaying the trees'
Also reminds me of a song suggested by some phil forum friend...again I can't remember.
The moral of the story...

reminds me of a song suggested by some phil forum friend...again I can't remember. — Amity

Got it.
I Talk To The Wind - King Crimson

Simple enough lyrics with haunting music. Some might say depressing...

Well, not a lot of people know that :gasp: — Amity

Heh, I'm a wallowing pig, @Banno is some combination of goat-chimp-man, and then we have @unenlightened who rather has the dual characteristic of being either a frog or a horse. It's a zoo in here!

Could have been our friendly god spelled backwards, ol @Bitter Crank.

I don't think we're in much disagreement here. Of course we could get into the ethics of evaluating forum participation, for instance on what basis would be evaluate a "good" use of the forum (what's the basis of deciding who we are helping, why, to do what, and how would we know? etc.), but that would quickly just resolve down to more general ethical discussions that happen here all the time.

I'm glad you liked my translation of L'infinito. I tried to render more (some of) the feeling than a literal translation (which is basically impossible in this case), so am happy you felt it.

'm glad you liked my translation of L'infinito. I tried to render more (some of) the feeling than a literal translation (which is basically impossible in this case), so am happy you felt it. — boethius

Leopardi. I had never heard of. However, wiki has given me an inkling.
Do you have a special interest in him - or do you just go around translating any old poem ?
I so admire translators especially those who can capture both the rhythm and the feel.
I would imagine it to be a work of love...

Heh, I'm a wallowing pig, Banno is some combination of goat-chimp-man, and then we have @unenlightened who rather has the dual characteristic of being either a frog or a horse. It's a zoo in here! — Wallows

Otherkins ?
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/why-be-human-when-you-can-be-otherkin

Many adopt images of cats or wolves. I knew a bear once...

Very interesting article. Here's my takeaway:

“Psychiatry sees individual patients, otherkin sees a community and a safe space. Where medicine has seen a syndrome to be explained, otherkin have seen affinities with no need for a unified metaphysical justification.”

I am an otherkin in that I have justified my bedridden tendencies and wallowing for something acceptable and normal in nature.

Quick work for a wallower. In bed or otherwise.

Hmm. :blush:

Do you translate German ?
This is the poem I think I must have been reminded of.
By Goethe:
Wanderer's Nightsong II

Über allen Gipfeln
Ist Ruh,
In allen Wipfeln
Spürest du
Kaum einen Hauch;
Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde.
Warte nur, balde
Ruhest du auch.


There are various translations:

1. https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/German/Goethepoems.php#anchor_Toc74652097
Translated by A. S. Kline

Over all the hill-tops
Is Rest,
In all the tree-tops
You can feel
Scarcely a breath:
The little birds quiet in the leaves.
Wait now, soon you
Too will have peace.

----------

2. From wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderer%27s_Nightsong
(Tr. Henry Wadsworth Longfellow)

O’er all the hilltops 
Is quiet now, 
In all the treetops 
Hearest thou 
Hardly a breath; 
The birds are asleep in the trees: 
Wait, soon like these 
Thou too shalt rest. 
----------
3. From:
http://poemsintranslation.blogspot.com/2009/09/jw-goethe-wayfarers-evening-song-from.html

Translated by A.Z. Foreman

Over every hilltop
comes repose.
From every treetop
there blows
barely a breath toward you. 
Birds in the woodland cease their song.
Wait, now. Before long
You will rest, too.

You know what? I'm going to reach out to Massimo and ask him if he can answer a list of some 3-5 questions prepresented to him. He's very active on Facebook, and maybe he can make some time for us.

What do you think, @Amity? I can't fathom what kind of questions to ask though. I'll think about it...

The old database is for sale? — boethius

Yes, upwards of 10k though.

You know what? I'm going to reach out to Massimo and ask him if he can answer a list of some 3-5 questions prepresented to him. He's very active on Facebook, and maybe he can make some time for us.

What do you think, Amity? I can't fathom what kind of questions to ask though. I'll think about it... — Wallows

Great that you have this informal contact.
However, I think you should post this suggestion in the thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/7047/arguing-with-guests-your-choice

Where any formal request might proceed
@Baden is 'Happy to take suggestions and invite on that basis provided @jamalrob agrees.'
Also, others might help out with questions to ask.

Just clear it with @jamalrob first. I'd be happy to set things up if he agrees and Massimo accepts.

Ok, will work on it.

:up: