Yes consciousness is a mystery, I would only suggest it is a fundamental of our universe like space, time and quarks.

As for why pain needs to be unpleasant rather than just a signal to the brain, I suggest that if it were merely a signal it could be ignored, like spam in one's inbox, to the detriment of the survival of the organism.

First, any other theory why consciousness? — Zelebg

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-unity/

As for why pain needs to be unpleasant rather than just a signal to the brain, I suggest that if it were merely a signal it could be ignored, like spam in one's inbox, to the detriment of the survival of the organism.

I feel there might be some truth there, but if it's all just about computation, then much simpler solution is to simply flag signals by priority, just like PC.

As for why pain needs to be unpleasant rather than just a signal to the brain, I suggest that if it were merely a signal it could be ignored, like spam in one's inbox, to the detriment of the survival of the organism. — A Seagull

motivation and choice are not starting points for behavior, but just links in the chain of causality. and so they are not required for behavior.

I feel there might be some truth there, but if it's all just about computation, then much simpler solution is to simply flag signals by priority, just like PC. — Zelebg

there we go

It could also be said then, the purpose of sentience is imagination, the ability to create ideas. But still, why qualia?

Can you prove that or are you just guessing?

Can you prove that or are you just guessing? — A Seagull

it can be proven absolutely. because something cannot come from nothing and therefore causality must be omnipresent and eternal. therefore motivation and choice are not starting points. and therefore consciousness is not needed in that way for behavior or survival

Second, this all makes sense, except I do not see why that or whatever functionality necessarily requires to be accompanied by the subjective experience or qualia. Why the need to actually suffer the pain, why it needs to hurt instead of just having an information about 'pain signal'? Why need to feel unpleasant fear instead of simply get 'fear signal' and 'compute' how to avoid the 'pain signal' without actually feeling or being conscious of anything? — Zelebg

Exactly. It is hard to see what consciousness adds to behavior that would provide some advantage. Suppose we have a robot that has a heat sensor on its hand. Let's write some code that amounts to the following:

if (handHeat > damageThreshold), run EmergencyHandWithdraw;

There is no reason this needs to involve pain. Now let's add a subjective pain module and introduce another step to activate it. We will pretend it's possible to create such a pain module.

if (handHeat > damageThreshold), handPain = 10;
if (handPain > 7), run EmergencyHandWithdraw;

The pain evaluation part is an extra and unnecessary step as far as objective behavior goes. It actually slows reaction time. What's the point?

First, any other theory why consciousness? Second, this all makes sense, except I do not see why that or whatever functionality necessarily requires to be accompanied by the subjective experience or qualia. — Zelebg

Since Consciousness of Qualia is not necessary for physical evolution, I assume it was a requirement for Cultural Evolution to mysteriously emerge from Material Development . But what adaptive purpose does conscious experience serve, if as Materialists assume, we are all Zombie Automatons?

Cultural Evolution :
"Cultural evolution” is the idea that human cultural change –– that is, changes in socially transmitted beliefs, knowledge, customs, skills, attitudes, languages, and so on –– can be described as a Darwinian evolutionary process that is similar in key respects (but not identical) to biological/genetic evolution.

PS___One theory to explain the emergence of conscious beings is that the Designer of this Game of Life wanted to experience reality vicariously through He/r avatars : us.
Just a guess, based on the metaphor of a video game.. :smile:

The pain evaluation part is an extra and unnecessary step as far as objective behavior goes. It actually slows reaction time. What's the point?

Let me try. Sensors existed before consciousness and they caused chemical and electrical reactions. When sentience appeared it could not choose how to interpret that signal. Information in the signal was not in the form TYPE:PRIORITY, but TYPE:INTENSITY, which has the advantage that now consciousness can decide priority, and it just so happens this intensity for the signal of pain feels like it hurts. If unnecessary, maybe 10,000 years in the future humans will feel the pain hurts less, which will make them more adventurous, and that is good, or bad, who knows!

In any case, suffering of the pain may just be a side effect. The purpose of qualia I expect to find in functions like intention and imagination, something along those lines, something that can not be computed, for some reason.

The claim that you can't get something from nothing cannot be a starting point as that idea is a conclusion only reached after a long and somewhat tenuous line of inferences, some of which are not at all rigorous. The existence of causality is also highly questionable.
Far more fundamental and simpler are the choices made by a simple organism. Whether those choices are 'free' or 'determined' is irrelevant.

In any case, suffering of the pain may just be a side effect. The purpose of qualia I expect to find in functions like intention and imagination, something along those lines, something that can not be computed, for some reason. — Zelebg

I can see some need for qualia in certain kinds of imagination, but I currently see concepts of access consciousness as able to do most types of imagination. Why do you think intention might require qualia? I can understand it needing a sense of agency, which might require qualia. Is that how you are getting there?

I'm starting to build a coherent hypothesis that qualia and emotive phenomenon are logically (e.g., evolutionary) needed to optimally create and convey wisdom, but not at all needed to create data, info, or knowledge.

So, under my above hypothesis, experiencing a qualia and emotive phenomenon for the color 'red' might be needed to create and convey wisdom concerning the data value/info of red. This same line of thinking could be extended to pain. There is a wisdom to pain; e.g., if you treat pain like an data value then you might be a psychopath, b/c the qualia of pain imparts the wisdom of empathy against torturing our own kind, or even animals. How about that as a best working theory to answer your question?

On an aside, I have been entertaining a hypothesis on that for many years, and I still hold it possible, if not plausible, if not actual. That is, in my model of consciousness as quasi-stable, dynamic standing wave resonance w/in our brains, anything that disrupts the stability of the resonant condition may be experienced as a qualia pain. One evidence for this hypothesis includes the fact that pain forces (consumes) ones conscious to focus on and experience nothing but the (discord) pain. Another evidence I have for this hypothesis is the actual pain people suffering from Epilepsy experience during an Epileptic seizure (discord in brain waves), which pain can be removed by electric shock to the brain like a defibrillator restoring the resonant heart beat condition. Also, the mental pain of a 'broken heart' causes a discord in consciousness thought.


hope this elevates the discussion here...