That's a bit strong. There's much talk, in the Land of Metaphysics, of what is or may be beyond time and space. Like Donald Trump, for instance.

I mean semantically it is impossible to talk about the existence of something if there are separate special meanings for the word "exist", "never" and "nowhere" which only apply to that special 'something'.

Btw, time is not actually a property, there is nothing it can be a property of, except "change' itself. Thus it can't be a dimension in literal sense, it's just an abstract consequence of motion. You could say there is always time, but it stands still if nothing moves or there is nothing to move.

Time is generally considered to be the fourth dimension, isn't it? (And in space - in addition to no one hearing you scream - there's no such event as "nothing moves".)

If nothing moved, time wouldn't stand still, it would end - and so would space.

Could be a disaster-movie sequel to that Dan Brown about anti-matter: a new Cerne experiment goes wrong and threatens to destroy the universe.

Time is generally considered to be the fourth dimension, isn't it?

Yes, for other reasons. Time is abstract, does not exist separatelly from the concept of velocity, like angle does not exist without two lines. Time can not be measured directly, all we measure is rate of change, i.e. velocity. Unfortunatelly, velocity is also abstract, it does not exist without time, so neither time nor velocity actually exist.

If nothing moved, time wouldn't stand still, it would end

It would end, or it would begin.

Yes - hypothetically the universe would probably implode and cause the next Big Bang.

That would be almost as bad as Brexit.

To exist outside of the time is to exist never. To exist outside of space is to exist nowhere. It means it does not exist and that it never existed. If this simple logic is not obvious there is really no point in talking about this anymore, or about anything really. — Zelebg

People have been talking about Plato's "Forms", and Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" for thousands of years. Yet they don't exist in space-time. So what was the point of their Philosophy? Was it about physical Things, or metaphysical Ideas?


Meta-physics :
The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value.
1. Often dismissed by materialists as idle speculation on topics not amenable to empirical proof.
2. Aristotle divided his treatise on science into two parts. The world as-known-via-the-senses was labeled “physics” - what we call "Science" today. And the world as-known-by-the-mind, by reason, was labeled “metaphysics” - what we now call "Philosophy" .
3. Plato called the unseen world that hides behind the physical façade: “Ideal” as opposed to Real. For him, Ideal “forms” (concepts) were prior-to the Real “substance” (matter).
4. Physics refers to the things we perceive with the eye of the body. Meta-physics refers to the things we conceive with the eye of the mind. Meta-physics includes the properties, and qualities, and functions that make a thing what it is. Matter is just the clay from which a thing is made. Meta-physics is the design (form, purpose); physics is the product (shape, action). The act of creation brings an ideal design into actual existence. The design concept is the “formal” cause of the thing designed.
5. I use a hyphen in the spelling to indicate that I am not talking about Ghosts and Magic, but about Ontology (science of being).
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page14.html

Btw, time is not actually a property, there is nothing it can be a property of, except "change' itself. Thus it can't be a dimension in literal sense, it's just an abstract consequence of motion. — Zelebg

Yes. "Space" and "Time" are Meta-Physical concepts that have no physical referents. When Einstein spoke of the "fabric" of space, it was a metaphor for something that "exists" only as an Idea.
So, when you say something exists "in space", what do you mean? Does Space exist "in Time"? If we can't talk about such non-existent things using Metaphors, we are no better than the lower animals. The ability to conceive of "things that do not appear" is the key human trait.

The human body is Real. But human Consciousness is Ideal. G*D is a Metaphor.

Metaphors We Live By : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphors_We_Live_By

God is a mixed metaphor.

A poem, if I may, by Hugo Brucciani:

God is a mixed metaphor
Do you know what He is for?
Religion is a form of art
Totality made up from parts of
Goodness, wisdom, power, love
Authority from up above
He’s been dead two hundred years
Poisoned by our hopes and fears

Life is a revolving door
Do you know what it is for?
Philosophy? Ah nah nah nah
Just put you hand upon your car
And swear you will be true to those
Who lie in wait, half comatose
We’ve been stoned two hundred years
We know all your hopes and fears

People have been talking about Plato's "Forms", and Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover" for thousands of years. Yet they don't exist in space-time. So what was the point of their Philosophy? Was it about physical Things, or metaphysical Ideas?

Abstraction (information) needs matter/energy to be causally relative. Abstractions exist in minds, which do exist in time and space. Unmoved Mover can also be a bunch of particles with incredible properties as we see them, rather than magical being with properties that can not be seen. What assumption is more fantastic?

Perhaps if you said every and each atom is Unmoved Mover by itself, I would see no objection unless you want to ascribe to them some new magical properties.

I admit properties of atoms are mysterious and magical just as the concept of god, but it's simpler assumption, leaves us with less questions to wander about, and thus is more reasonable

Abstraction (information) needs matter/energy to be causally relative. Abstractions exist in minds, which do exist in time and space. — Zelebg

You won't understand what I'm talking about until you grasp the concept of abstract Information as the essence of both Matter and Energy (EnFormAction).

The Enformationism thesis begins with the basics and layer-by-layer builds-up the scaffolding for a complete Theory Of Everything on a foundation of immaterial Information. To a Materialist, that will sound insane --- another internet nut with a crazy theory. But it's merely a novel interpretation of cutting-edge Physics, and Information Theory, combined with ancient philosophical insights. It's not a religious concept, but it bridges the gap between Materialism and Idealism. Whether it sounds reasonable, or not, may depend on the presumptions you bring to it. :smile:


The EnFormAction Hypothesis : http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html

Enformationism Thesis : http://enformationism.info/enformationism.info/

Is Information Fundamental? : https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/is-information-fundamental/

I like to hear any theory, but have too much to read already. Can you say anything about the actual process of materialization of those abstractions?

Everything emerges from Platonic mathematics, monkeys evolve into transhumans, then heat death.
Next question. :wink:

... then heat death. Next question

What if before heat death (assuming we survive climate crisis) human consciousness meets/attains universal consciousness?

Then dissipation. Then heat death.

I like to hear any theory, but have too much to read already. Can you say anything about the actual process of materialization of those abstractions? — Zelebg

Yes. Immaterial Information (energy) transforms into concrete Matter via the process of "Phase Change". It's a well-known physical phenomenon, but still a bit mysterious without an understanding that Information (causation) is both Energy and Matter. Also, it would help to grasp the concept of "Emergence". To save you some research and reading time, the blog post below presents an overview of how Phase Transitions and Emergence are involved in the "process of materialization".

In my theory, those natural (no divine intervention) Transforming processes are also involved in the "dematerialization" of Matter into Mind (consciousness). But a complete explanation for that might try your patience. :smile:

The EnFormAction Hypothesis : http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page23.html

Note :Enformation is Causation; Transformation.

PS__If you need some scientific authority to back-up my personal thesis, any of the books by physicist Paul Davies will elucidate the role of Information in Physics. The latest is Information and the Nature of Reality: From Physics to Metaphysics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Davies

God is a mixed metaphor

Since G*D is not real (i.e. outside space-time) humans have always expressed their intuition of an Ultimate Cause in a variety of metaphors, such as Storm Gods and Enthroned Kings. My thesis uses the notion of a Great Programmer to indicate the role of Information in the computation of Evolution.

From the first two links in this post, information is:

1) the latent power of mental contents
2) That algorithm of Consciousness
3) the answer to a question that resolves some uncertainty
4) an integral component of Sentience, Consciousness, and Cognition. It is the raw material of Reason, the essence of Knowledge, and the structure of Mind.
5) the conscious motive behind an act of speech: Intention
6) extracted pieces of meaning are then labeled generically as information
7) A quality of physical patterns and processes that stimulates meaning to emerge in a mind. Since it has few directly perceivable qualities itself, generic information is usually defined in terms of its context or container. Unlike colorless, odorless, and formless water though, Information gives physical form to whatever contains it. In the Enformationism thesis it is the single Substance of the whole World.

And in this post, information is energy, and causation, and "both Energy and Matter."

Immaterial Information (energy) transforms into concrete Matter via the process of "Phase Change". It's a well-known physical phenomenon, but still a bit mysterious without an understanding that Information (causation) is both Energy and Matter. — Gnomon

Perhaps a general definition of information is required which pertains to inorganic (physical), organic (biological), and semantic types of information.

Do you have one (or more) of those?

Perhaps a general definition of information is required which pertains to inorganic (physical), organic (biological), and semantic types of information. — Galuchat

Sure. First, here's a general definition from the Enformationism Glossary :

Information :
Knowledge and the ability to know. Technically, it's the ratio of order to disorder, of positive to negative, of knowledge to ignorance. It's measured in degrees of uncertainty. Those ratios are also called "differences". So Gregory Bateson* defined Information as "the difference that makes a difference". The latter distinction refers to "value" or "meaning". Babbage called his prototype computer a "difference engine". Difference is the cause or agent of Change. In Physics it’s called "Thermodynamics" or "Energy". In Sociology it’s called "Conflict".
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html

Abstract Information : the 1s & 0s of computer language. Existence = 1, Non-existence = 0

Physical Information : Energy - e.g. the ratio between Hot & Cold. Energy is the causal power of Information. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_information

Material Information : E=MC\2. Mass is Enformed Energy, and is an essential property of Matter. "the equation says that energy and mass (matter) are interchangeable; they are different forms of the same thing." https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/einstein/lrk-hand-emc2expl.html

Shannon Information : The abstract ratio of One to Zero. It yields accuracy in computation, but omits any meaning or significance. Quantity without Quality.

Organic Information : Living organisms are defined and organized by their "Information Molecule", which we call DNA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA

Semantic Information : Meaning in a conscious mind; for example the relationship between Self and Other. It can be expressed mathematically as a numerical ratio, or emotionally as a positive/negative feeling. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/information-semantic/

NOTE : Originally, before Shannon, the word "Information" meant that-which-Informs or educates (i.e. knowledge). Literally, it means to give definite Form to the Amorphous. Metaphorically, to create Order out of Chaos. To know; to be aware, is to be Conscious.

Perhaps a general definition of information is required which pertains to inorganic (physical), organic (biological), and semantic types of information.

Do you have one (or more) of those? — Galuchat

Sure. First, here's a general definition from the Enformationism Glossary : — Gnomon

Obviously not.
A definition in terms of probability is a mathematical definition, and Bateson's definition is a semantic definition, and a thermodynamic definition would be a physical definition, etc.
But keep working on it, even if it's not terribly relevant to the OP.

Obviously not.
A definition in terms of probability is a mathematical definition, and Bateson's definition is a semantic definition, and a thermodynamic definition would be a physical definition, etc.
But keep working on it, even if it's not terribly relevant to the OP. — Galuchat

What did I miss?

Where do you see the connection between Platonic realm of geometry and that of Quantum field? I say it's Aether, and that already makes more sense as it is material, i.e. measurable. Then I can say Aether contains abstract information from Platonic realm embedded in it. Surely, this is much better theory?

Virtual particles which are actually real, and abstract realm which is actually material. Again, it is semantically impossible to talk about it if some words can flip their meaning 180 degrees. Phase change is property of matter, you can not extrapolate that to abstract without asserting that abstract is actually material or embedded in something material to start with.

What did I miss? — Gnomon

The meaning of "equivocation" and "general definition".

Apart from that, I think it would be much more instructive to describe consciousness in terms of complex systems rather than in terms of information.

The meaning of "equivocation" and "general definition". — Galuchat

Are you accusing me of lying, or of just being ambiguous? Were my multiple definitions too specific? Unfortunately, a simple definition of Information would not be very informative, and might be misleading, as in Shannon's mathematical abstraction, which omits all qualia & meaning.

That's because Information is not a thing, but everything. Or, as the Information Philosopher put it : "Information is the lingua franca of the universe". If you think my definitions of Information gave Too Much Information (TMI). please don't look at the Information Philosopher website. It will boggle your mind. :smile:

Information Philosopher : http://www.informationphilosopher.com/introduction/information/
"Information is neither matter nor energy, although it
needs matter to be embodied and energy to be
communicated. Why should it become the preferred
basis for all philosophy?"

Where do you see the connection between Platonic realm of geometry and that of Quantum field? I say it's Aether, — Zelebg

Plato's Ideal Realm of Forms, and the Quantum Field, and the Akashic Field, and the Aether Field are all metaphors for something that is not real or physical, but ideal or metaphysical. In physics, a "field" is a continuum (non-particular empty space) where something can be mathematically defined, even though it can't be seen or touched. That void-vacuum-space is typically defined by an infinite array of mathematical "points" which are completely abstract loci of pure Information. They are all materialistic fantasies of ghostly invisible and intangible entities that exist only in the mind of the "observer".

In Quantum Theory, the field is where Virtual (not quite real) Particles arise from the void. The Aether was imagined by philosophers as almost infinitely diffuse matter of some unknown kind, equivalent to our modern notion of Space. Early physicists proposed a Luminiferous Aether as a medium for light waves to wave in (later abandoned as unnecessary).

All of these places or spaces are imaginary, and can contain almost anything you can imagine. So yes, the Information Field could be described as an "Aether Field". Or as any of the other Field or Plenum metaphors. But like Virtual Particles, the Information bits exist only in potential, until actualized by observation.

Euclidean Point in Geometry : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_(geometry)

Plato's Ideal Realm of Forms, and the Quantum Field, and the Akashic Field, and the Aether Field are all metaphors for something that is not real or physical, but ideal or metaphysical.

Aether has structure and dynamics, fluid dynamics of vortices to be precise. That is how Maxwell originally got his equations, but it was forgotten and what you today call Maxwell's equations are not his original equations that defined photon and EM waves.

In physics, a "field" is a continuum (non-particular empty space) where something can be mathematically defined, even though it can't be seen or touched. That void-vacuum-space is typically defined by an infinite array of mathematical "points" which are completely abstract loci of pure Information. They are all materialistic fantasies of ghostly invisible and intangible entities that exist only in the mind of the "observer".

Electric and magnetic fields can be touched, that's all you ever touch. They can be measured, and that means 'material' even if it is transparent to our eyes. Phantasies are ok if they give you predictive power, but what do you do with a theory which gives you nothing to measure and no way to confirm?