I bet a lot of people initially feel it's somehow icky to for example physically interact with a clearly transgendered person (or at least in certain combinations), but that doesn't mean they secretly think there's something unacceptable about that person or their choices — zookeeper
Actually there are all sorts of ways in which transgender people can benefit the species. First of all, it's important to consider that human beings don't need to be baby machines in order to contribute to society which is itself a fundamental bedrock of modern child-rearing. Individuals whose normal sexual functioning is compromised for whatever reason, be it atypical psychology or a physically damaged/incomplete set of reproductive organs, are not actually hindering the human race or it's future by failing to pass on their genes. In fact, it would be best if the very healthiest among us were the only ones to reproduce to ensure that the next generation has as healthy a gene pool as possible. — VagabondSpectre
Strictly speaking it doesn't really matter how many MTF trannies there are because a couple virile men could pitch in and shoulder their share of the reproductive burden; only FTM transsexuals would actually be a throttling or limiting factor on the maximum number of babies that we ought to churn out — VagabondSpectre
Genetically speaking, the ability for variation to occur is a necessity for evolution to occur. What some call aberration can eventually turn out to be indispensable innovation. Having a high variance in sex and gender identity inherent in a gene pool may be a reflection of a healthy ability for individuals and groups to adapt to the pressures of changing cultures and environments. See the following paragraph for examples.
For someone who cannot otherwise be "happy" (in the long run for static psychological reasons, not a child's whim as some parents seem to think is the same thing), that's the only purpose that it needs to serve. If by being happy they can become a more productive member of society, then it will have been worth it to let them live out life as the gender of their choosing, presuming that we have moral or ethical purchase on their personal decisions in the first place.
Beyond that though, there are all kinds of social situations where "gender bending" fits right in; stress relief. When groups of men are on their own for extended periods of time, such as in prison, while on long hunting trips, and during extended war, transsexuals or individuals who can easily transition into a typically feminine role, would eventually become quite popular indeed... In our tree-dwelling evolutionary history we were most likely some kind of pan-sexual gender bending nymphomaniacs at some point who took every opportunity possible to have sex just for the stress relief that it can provide. Bonobos (a great ape) notably are up to this behavior all day long and in the reality of their social structures it serves a useful purpose.
Whether instances of transgenderism are just accidental but necessary evolutionary spandrels which appear as anomalies in population groups (due to how gender and genetics (or the psychology of gender) works), or is an actually load bearing part of our evolutionary history of genetic adaptation and resulting adaptability, I cannot say, but what I can say is that since nobody has a moral obligation to birth or sire 2.6 children and a dog, it doesn't really matter what gender people choose live as. If that's required for their happiness, then I would argue we're morally obligated not to interfere with them unless they are causing some kind of actual harm. — VagabondSpectre
For real though: the baby train is not under threat; we will not all be transgender one day; developmental variance is a function of the way evolution allows us to adapt as individuals and as groups over the long run; living in confusion or depression is less mentally healthy than being happy and transgender. — VagabondSpectre
And beyond that? Or, (if one thinks of going deeper) "below" that? Is there anything below/beyond that in terms of the foundation of our identity? Perhaps. And thankfully, it may not be all that uncommon. To go deeper than one's human identity is to identity with other mammals, and with all living beings. I dare say that someone who has deeply bonded with a pet has possibly transcended a strictly human identity. And this is disregarding the strange, otherworldly hypnotic powers of pet cats. — 0 thru 9
Transgenders have what is called a somatic delusion - where one believes that there is something wrong with their body.
http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusions.html
Why is it that we seem to allow some people to continue to hold their delusions, or even promote their delusional state, while others we try to "help" them overcome their delusions and see things as they truly are (that they are actually the gender they were born as). It comes down to "Is it moral to allow someone to continue believing in a lie, or to make them face the facts?" Would it be immoral to help reinforce their lie to themselves?
I would like to know how consistent people are in this. Why do we find it okay to tell the religious that they believe in a delusion, but not okay to tell this to a transgender?
Why do we find it okay to allow doctors to make money off mentally ill people to perform a sex change when that essentially counts as mutilating their body as a result of their delusion? — Harry Hindu
But I also belief we should all be multiplying at the faster rate possible so that we can create more geniuses per 100,000 stupid people. — intrapersona
I can see why you would say that, but I am just talking about practicality here. I am not saying what is natural is best but what is most practical is best. It just so happens that what is our fundamental biological nature (reproduction) IS most practical and therefor to say it is the opposite is false. — intrapersona
By definition, a female baby is always born as a female. A woman is a mature female and therefor de beauvoir is right in that you grow in to one. BUT to be a woman necessitates you be a female in the first place, by definition that is. To say you are a woman when you are a man is frankly absurd, I might as well say I am a peanut and not a human. — intrapersona
It hasn't worked? Like it hasn't worked in making 7 billion people over the last 50,000 years? — intrapersona
You agree that society takes on the role of deciding what individuals are required to believe is ethical and that social conventions currently force people to accept gays, transgender etc. and that such a thing is oppression. — intrapersona
You disagree with me in that transgender is a disorder. You seem to view it as "an adaption towards novel conditions". But what is novel about pretending to be a peanut? Or saying that you are God? It is all deranged thinking and is in no way any more practical, reasonable are novel in any way shape or form. — intrapersona
I just want to investigate how I might be wrong in my thinking — intrapersona
the square cube — intrapersona
the circular hole — intrapersona
What do you think about what I said about gays having a disorder of the mind? Isn't it counter-evolution and therefor going AGAINST your own fundamental nature? — intrapersona
Ok, that is a good point I have to concede that reproduction is not the be all and end all in our CURRENT society. But I also belief we should all be multiplying at the faster rate possible so that we can create more geniuses per 100,000 stupid people. Geniuses advanced our society and make life better. Thanks edison, einstein etc. — intrapersona
Yes but it says nothing about the principle that is occurring here. It is delusional thinking to claim you are something you are not and we all saw what christianity amounted to over the last couple thousand years. — intrapersona
I did read that and found nowevidence to conclude that transgenderism is somehow beneficial in terms of genetic variation.
Do you have any examples of how what some call aberration can eventually turn out to be indispensable innovation in the past in humans or other animals? — intrapersona
Also, I would like to say I agree with you that when a transgender has already made their decision then it would cause them suffering to force them not to live their life out as a transgender but... that is because the issue should be resolved before it starts. Prevention is better than cure. It is like a fungal growth of which the treatment is painful, to let it grow isn't the solution. — intrapersona
By what definition? I don't know any definition that says if one feels 'icky' (squeamish? uncomfortable?) about something that they consider it unacceptable.Really? I think by definition if someone feels icky to physically interact with a clearly transgendered person then it means they think there is something unacceptable about that person or their choices. Otherwise they wouldn't feel icky. — intrapersona
It is a downright disease of the human condition and it as preposterous that we accept it, it is like cancer — intrapersona
Well what's the latest science on that? Do transgender people have actual physiological differences in their brain or is it purely a psychological thing? What kind of treatment or therapy could "cure" them, and would that tend to be easier or harder than undergoing a sex change, or just living as transgender without a sex change?
Surely the answers to your questions depend on those. — zookeeper
That sounds like a somatic delusion. What happens when you tell them that they have a vagina when they believe they have a penis? Don't they become offended?Are you equating gender with biological sex? Because I don't know if many transgender men, for example, believe that they have a penis despite the fact that they have a vagina. — Michael
That sounds like a somatic delusion. What happens when you tell them that they have a vagina when they believe they have a penis? Don't they become offended? — Harry Hindu
If you do get aroused, just be aware that you are evidently oriented towards homosexual bestiality — Bitter Crank
By definition, a female baby is always born as a female — intrapersona
haltering up mares, turning over their water buckets and leave plastic gloves behind — ArguingWAristotleTiff
This discussion is bottom of the rung. — Heister Eggcart
So, what's below the bottom rung? — Bitter Crank
Probably this conversation about rungs and ladders, I'd wager... — Heister Eggcart
What happens when you tell them that they have a vagina when they believe they have a penis? — Harry Hindu
That's the thing; they don't believe that they have a penis. That's why they identify as a transgender man, not as a cisgender man. — Michael
You both didn't seem to get the gist of my post.What if they're post-op? — VagabondSpectre
Really? :-| Why don't you quote the rest of the post instead of cherry-picking in another pathetic attempt to insult me.Wow, I didn't expect to hear a very concise and accurate description of this considering your post in my other thread:
"Your pathetic attempts at insulting me just show me that I'm wasting my time with a loser. The list of reasonable people on these forums is shrinking. Yep, Im wasting my time"
Jesus man, dealing with you is like going from the north pole to the equator in 2 seconds. — intrapersona
Just think about it for a second without getting caught up in the politics and ethics of it. These people believe that they have a soul or spirit that is somehow imbued with either masculinity or femininity that is opposite of their body's masculinity or femininity. Do souls or spirits have a quality of masculinity or femininity about them, and can souls be placed in the wrong body? — Harry Hindu
Do you have any examples of how what some call aberration can eventually turn out to be indispensable innovation in the past in humans or other animals? — intrapersona
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