Did you even read the TIME link you posted?

Ukraine’s government insists that it has no evidence of wrongdoing by Hunter Biden or his father.

...

“We don’t know how major players in the United States would turn any statement” on the issue of corruption, says Bohdan Yaremenko, a senior lawmaker in the ruling party of President Zelensky. “If we would try to make an emphasis on this issue right now, we would sound like we are trying to contradict President Trump and Republicans.”

It's not just that. It was illegal for him to withhold aid at all, whatever the motivation. — Michael

President Donald Trump says he lifted his freeze on aid to Ukraine on Sept. 11, but the State Department had quietly authorized releasing $141 million of the money several days earlier, according to five people familiar with the matter.

State Department lawyers found the White House Office of Management and Budget, and thus the president, had no legal standing to block spending of the Ukraine aid. — Michael

If Trump didn't have the power to withhold or release aid, then it seems to me that there was no quid pro quo from Trump. I find it difficult to believe that no one told Trump that he doesn't have the legal standing to make such a request in exchange for military aid that he was offering. Maybe that is why he ended up telling Sondland that he didn't want anything and that there was no quid pro quo.

That's not what happened. It's actually the opposite. — Michael

However, Shokin was not fired for investigating Burisma, but for his failure to pursue corruption investigations — including investigations connected to Burisma. And Biden wasn’t alone in the effort to push Shokin out, but rather was spearheading the Obama administration’s policy, which represented a consensus among diplomats, officials from various European countries, and the International Monetary Fund that Shokin was an impediment to rooting out corruption in his country — Michael

Right, so then Trump wants the Ukranians to launch an investigation into the very same company that the Obama Admin had issues with, it's just that now Hunter Biden is on the board of the company that the Obama Admin wanted to investigate and his father is a political rival to the sitting president, and they withheld critical military aid in exchange for those investigations. That raises even more eyebrows and is even more of a reason to investigate the relationship between Burisma and the Bidens. The fact is that this investigation doesn't just help Trump. Blaming Trump for asking questions that everyone with an objective mind should be asking is hypocritical.

Just to be fair, Trump should have released his tax returns by now. Trump claims to not be a politician, but then goes and does what politicians do - lie.

Totally irrelevant as it has no bearing whatsoever on the current case for Donald Trump. Even if the impeachment were entirely partisan motivated if it's true he needs to go.

He needs to go, for what reason?

Did you even read the TIME link you posted?

Uh, yeah. I even quoted it.

No. He just doesn't care about torture... if the voters think that torture works, he goes with it. After all, in the debate the moral stand wasn't touched, just the effectiveness of the interrogation method (see the wording... by Trump himself).

That’s not true, he does care about torture when our enemies do it. Perhaps torture is their just deserts. Trump never wants to take anything off the table. This is just routine art of the deal type stuff.

Then how can you say this?

Potentially help Trump or refuse to investigate possible of corruption to help Biden.

Given that there's no evidence that the Bidens have anything to do with any corruption at Burisma, how would refusing to investigate possible corruption help Biden?

And how does investigating help Trump anyway?

Given that there's no evidence that the Bidens have anything to do with any corruption at Burisma, how would refusing to investigate possible corruption help Biden?

And how does investigating help Trump anyway?

Surely announcing criminal corruption investigations into a candidate would hurt that candidate’s campaign. Knowingly refusing to do investigations before an election because it may hurt Biden is to help Biden’s campaign.

Surely announcing criminal corruption investigations into a candidate would hurt that candidate’s campaign. — NOS4A2

But this wouldn’t be announcing an investigation of a candidate. It’s an investigation of a Ukraine company, and they explicitly say that there’s no evidence that either Biden has anything to do with it.

But this wouldn’t be announcing an investigation into a candidate. It’s an investigation into a Ukraine company, and they explicitly say that there’s no evidence that either Biden has anything to do with it.

It’s a corrupt company that payed the son of that candidate over $50,000 a month while that candidate was vice-president of the US and the point man in Ukraine.

So? I’m just quoting the article you provided:

Ukraine’s government insists that it has no evidence of wrongdoing by Hunter Biden or his father.

...

“We don’t know how major players in the United States would turn any statement” on the issue of corruption, says Bohdan Yaremenko, a senior lawmaker in the ruling party of President Zelensky. “If we would try to make an emphasis on this issue right now, we would sound like we are trying to contradict President Trump and Republicans.”

Your own source is refuting this conspiracy you’re alleging - a conspiracy that Trump is using in an attempt to justify his illegal withholding of aid to leverage the announcement of an investigation into his rival.

Your own source is refuting this conspiracy you’re alleging - a conspiracy that Trump is using in an attempt to justify his illegal withholding of aid to leverage the announcement of an investigation into his rival.

I haven’t alleged any conspiracy. I have only alleged it is a clear conflict of interest that deserves investigation. I hold the same view of Hunter’s dealings with China.

During a press conference in Kyiv on Wednesday, Ryaboshapka told reporters that there are more than a dozen criminal cases in Ukraine that involve Zlochevsky or his company. They will all be reviewed in due course, he added.

Ignoring them is not much of an option for Ukraine. “We cannot not investigate it just because it will benefit Trump or hurt Biden,” says the official, who believes, “It’s a case of corruption.” But given how radioactive the Burisma case has become in Washington, the government is not eager to pursue it in the midst of the U.S. presidential race. “We can do it after the elections,” the official tells TIME. That might be one way to thread Volker’s needle.

So now that the public impeachment inquiry hearings have concluded, what have we learned?

We've seen nigh irrefutable proof that Trump did in fact try to extort/bribe/trade security assistance dollars for an investigation into his 2020 rival (Biden), thereby illegally subverting American interests and the rule of law for personal gain, and then covering it up with lies and obstruction...

Were this a democratic president, or were this pre-90's, I feel like republicans would seriously be calling for the rope. How ironically twisted is it that republican pundits are instead accusing people like Lt.Col. Vindman of being Russian agents? (Who is by all accounts save Trump sycophants, a war hero, and quintessentially American (son of an immigrant, dedicated to serving America; in love with the meaning of the flag)).

So we know democrats have found sufficient evidence of wrongdoing, what's next?



Aside from possible additional hearings with Bolton and others as witnesses (most likely closed door), democrats will find sufficient evidence of wrongdoing and congress the house judiciary committee will put it to a vote. The vote will definitely pass, which AFAIK, means we're definitely in for an impeachment trial in the senate?

Even getting that far will be a success IMO, if only as a symbolic gesture to Americans and the rest of the democratic world.

@NOS4A2 And hey, let's investigate the Biden's while we're at it, just for fun (a job for the justice department I reckon), but let's also not ask foreign governments to carry out those investigations (because it's unconstitutional, and stupid).

Even getting that far will be a success IMO, if only as a symbolic gesture to American's and the rest of the democratic world. — VagabondSpectre

Getting there:

Uh oh. Leaks from Horowitz’s report are beginning.

Exclusive: Former FBI lawyer under investigation after allegedly altering document in 2016 Russia probe

I’m betting this lawyer worked under Strzok, likely in General Flynn’s case. Flynn’s lawyer recently demanded documents claiming some were forged. Or it is straight up abuse of the FISA report.

Uh oh. Leaks from Horowitz’s report are beginning. — NOS4A2

Better arrest the leakers! They're the real criminals.

But they’re patriots worried about the country! They have no ulterior motives at all!

The impeachment show trial is over. Some quick thoughts.

What we learned beyond what we already knew is that insubordination exists at the highest levels of our government. Unelected, career bureaucrats, spend much of their efforts frustrating the foreign policy of the president. Though professing their love and duty to US/Ukraine relations, their actions only further threw these relations into peril.

Fears of “back-channels” were unwarranted. Presidents have back-channels. JFK had RFK work with Kruschev outside the State Department. Obama had Valerie Jarret do back-channel talks with Iran. Given that the president sets foreign policy, the only shadow policy was that of this coterie of insubordinates.

Fears of “foreign governments investigating American citizens” is unwarranted. The alleged investigations in Ukraine would pertain to Ukrainian companies and activities performed in Ukraine. Ukrainian jurisdiction does not extend beyond its borders. No amount of fear-mongering about future events should stifle investigations into possible corruption, especially in Ukraine.

Fears that the president wanted to “seek dirt on his political opponent” for the purposes of “influencing the 2020 election” were fabricated from thin air, made up, invented, and regurgitated into willing mouths. This is one of the fakest components of this show-trial, but is no less repeated almost verbatim in the news as it is from Schiff’s mouth.

Most of the testimonies revolve around presumptions about the president’s wants and desires, as stated above. The political motives of Trump were, again, invented whole-cloth and without evidence, but continued to play a role on the thinking of these bureaucrats. Despite the conspiratorial nature about Trump wanting political dirt to influence an election, most of which were contradicted by Trump’s own statements, the concerns continued, likely fuelled by the same anti-Trump media that found itself on the wrong side of history in the 2016 elections and the Russia conspiracy. This presumption and subsequent fabrications—indeed, the entire show trial—is best exemplified by this exchange between Sondland and Rep. Turner:

Trump — NOS4A2

The People have found their champion. Trump has consistently evidenced a fierce, egoless passion for ferreting out corruption in every corner of the globe. Watch your back, Swamp. God bless Trump. God bless the USA.

I can't quite any person serious that invokes the blessings of a mythical God.

This must be satire.

This must be satire. — Michael

It must. :smile:

It’s a corrupt company that payed the son of that candidate over $50,000 a month while that candidate was vice-president of the US and the point man in Ukraine. — NOS4A2

Joe Bidens' efforts at that time were not directed at 'helping' his son but at targetting corruption.

Fears that the president wanted to “seek dirt on his political opponent” for the purposes of “influencing the 2020 election” were fabricated from thin air, made up. — NOS4A2

This is a lie.

The political motives of Trump were, again, invented whole-cloth and without evidence, but continued to play a role on the thinking of these bureaucrats — NOS4A2

This is a lie.

What we learned beyond what we already knew is that insubordination exists at the highest levels of our government. Unelected, career bureaucrats, spend much of their efforts frustrating the foreign policy of the president. Though professing their love and duty to US/Ukraine relations, their actions only further threw these relations into peril. — NOS4A2

Another lie.

These are the lies that are undermining the rule of law and the constitution of the United States. Why thephilosophyforum has created a single thread which is now home to a propogandist for this conspiracy nonsense, I don't know, but charitably, it's because 'freedom of speech' extends even to those who repeat malicious lies.

Regardless, the case against Trump on the basis of bribery has been proven beyond any shadow of doubt. As has been said, what he has done is far worse than what Richard Nixon was charged with. But, of course, Trump is completely disconnected from reality, the notion that there are facts completely escapes him. So today's dial-in rant to Fox News comprised entirely more of the same outlandish conspiracy-theory nonsense that fueled the entire Ukraine escapade from the outset.

Had the GoP not been taken over by nutcase cronies of Trump (mostly the dregs of the Tea Party) then Trump might be out of office already. As it is, he might be acquitted by the Senate, thereby giving him an implicit mandate to engage in further criminal activities from the highest office in the land. Let's hope not, but it seems to be heading that way.

Our Trump troll here, along with Trump, Fox News, the 'alt-right media', and a large part of the GoP, are operating in an alternative universe, one where they get to pick their own facts. As Sally Anne Conway said so memorably after the Inauguration Photograph Lying fiasco (the inaugural fiasco of the Trump presidency), there are facts, and then there are 'alternative facts'. Unfortunately for all of us, though, this is not true; there really isn't 'an alternative reality', and facts really can't be picked or fabricated. Only lies can be fabricated.

They say that 'every story has two sides'. This is one case where that is not so. The Trump 'alternative universe' has no basis in reality - that is the simple fact of the matter. It's the fact that so many people are unwilling or unable to see that, which brings the United States to such a moment of extreme peril. You can't mess with truth, and get away with it.

Unelected, career bureaucrats, spend much of their efforts frustrating the foreign policy of the president. Though professing their love and duty to US/Ukraine relations, their actions only further threw these relations into peril. — NOS4A2

This deserves a bit more attention. All of the witnesses that came forward for the impeachment enquiry were career professionals and public service officials. Many of them have decades of distinguished service to both sides of politics, having served under both Democrat and Republican Presidents. They came forward, as did the original informant, because what they heard was the clear indication of misdeeds and potential crimes. All of this is beyond dispute.

But Trump's lackeys and henchmen have no hesitation in besmirching reputations, insulting his accusers, and trying to undermine them and make them out as liars. No actual defense of the voluminous facts - two weeks of televised testimony, all attesting to the basic facts of the case, that Trump and Rudy Giuliani were engaged in a 'shadow foreign policy' aimed wholly and solely at proving a discredited conspiracy theory. One of the witnesses said straight out that Trump didn't give a f*** about the Ukraine, that his only concern was with his political schemes.

This is just a projection of Trump's mentality. He's a proven and documented liar and narcissist, and has no way to deal with criticism, let alone criminal accusations, other than by bullying, further lies, and schoolyard insults. Even now, he shows no comprehension of the charges against him, simply fuming that 'it's all lies' and 'a witchhunt' even in the face of overwhelming evidence. How anyone can be persuaded by this, beats me, although I suppose it's in the interests of various agencies that others can be persuaded to believe it.

Watch another shietstorm emerge. Personally, I am relieved the scum is being flushed down the toilet.

What's really worrying to me is that these people feel like their being protected by Trump, or that they can just about do anything they please.

Shit goes down the drain!

The thing that is really a watershed moment in all this, is connecting the Republican party with/to Trump.

Let's see if another investigation is (seemingly) warranted.

Is it not true, that the Department of justice in the USA should have been the ones Trump was pushing to investigate Biden?

I mean, surely if the Trump presidency had genuine concerns and if the DOJ had genuine concerns about Biden's conduct; then surely the DOJ would be the ones to investigate it? Why is the president of the united states asking another country to investigate a politician from here? A DOJ investigation would have the authority to request the assistence of the Ukrainian authorities into investigating bidens Ukraine connection no? Why the attempts at secrecy and why not trust our own DOJ and Judicial system? What happened to America first?

If he lies. Show the lies instead of stating he lies and calling him a propagandist. It shouldn't be too hard to argue against someone who you claim is factually wrong. For the rest, stop soliciting his ban. NOS4A2 and I hardly see eye to eye and I seriously thought he was a troll in the beginning, but he isn't. Just someone who believes in such outlandish things (e.g. far removed from what I believe how things work) that it surprised me. Get over it.

Is it not true, that the Department of justice in the USA should have been the ones Trump was pushing to investigate Biden?

I mean, surely if the Trump presidency had genuine concerns and if the DOJ had genuine concerns about Biden's conduct; then surely the DOJ would be the ones to investigate it? Why is the president of the united states asking another country to investigate a politician from here? A DOJ investigation would have the authority to request the assistence of the Ukrainian authorities into investigating bidens Ukraine connection no? Why the attempts at secrecy and why not trust our own DOJ and Judicial system? What happened to America first?

Burisma is a Ukrainian company. So any investigation regarding Burisma pertains to that company and those who work there. But if they were to discover government involvement and foreign meddling, especially from US politicians, as our allies they would be sure to pass that info to the DOJ or maybe even seek extradition.