For me this is a null question. I could never be in the position to make that choice because for the choice to be possible the world would have to be so inconceivably different from how it is that 'I' - the person with the preferences, inclinations and values that the organism writing this has - could not be in it.in that case what choice would you make for yourself? — John
Maybe for you. I for one cannot conceive life without suffering. The possibility of suffering is an integral part of what it means to be alive. Yes the world is full of suffering, some of it great suffering. But that does not entail the emotional judgement "the world is shit". You can look at life and perceive it to be just as full of suffering as the man who calls it shit and yet not call it shit - I cannot call it shit because I cannot imagine it without suffering. Without suffering it loses its value. Without suffering virtue is impossible. Without suffering there is no courage, no loyalty, no perseverance, no chastity, no patience, no charity, no knowledge, no nothing of value. All value - like diamonds - appears under pressure.The world is shit, I'd press it in a heartbeat. — dukkha
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. — C.S. Lewis
Yes.ethics is fundamentally a practical activity, founded in our experience of this world. — andrewk
What is it that you mean here? I'm trying to understand the sentence and read it a few times but I don't get it. Are you trying to say you don't think you're in the position to decide what would be good for everyone else in the world?I could never be in the position to make that choice because for the choice to be possible the world would have to be so inconceivably different from how it is that 'I' - the person with the preferences, inclinations and values that the organism writing this has - could not be in it. — andrewk
I think of 'brains in vats' tales as imagined by the idle rich, who can somehow conceive of such scenarios without the many labourers and other resources and energy that would be needed for each brain. — mcdoodle
have yet to meet anyone who wants to be a brain in vat. — wuliheron
But not everyone wants to get rid of their sufferings. For example if someone told me they will fulfil all my desires - anything I want - today and get me rid of all my present sufferings, I will say no. That would be the absolute worst thing someone could do to me. The whole thing is that I want to do it myself, I want to overcome obstacles, develop my character, and learn myself. I don't want someone else to do it for me. That would be the horror of horrors. — Agustino
You mean a world where my overcoming is guaranteed instead of merely possible? I would refuse, because then it wouldn't be my merit. My virtue, my character - neither would be the result of me, but rather the inevitable result of history.And if you get to suffer and overcome in the best possible world for doing that as Agustino, instead of this life, with all it's happenstance, would you still refuse? — Marchesk
I don't find that entertaining, actually that's fucked up and disgusting. If I was in charge, I'd ban all horror movies for teaching and entertaining psychotic mindsets. Take Saw for example - why the hell would anyone watch that? Some folks even find it cool. Their mind is fucked.Yeah, The Walking Dead is entertaining to watch, but it would be hell to live. — Marchesk
You mean a world where my overcoming is guaranteed instead of merely possible? I would refuse, because then it wouldn't be my merit. My virtue, my character - neither would be the result of me, but rather the inevitable result of history. — Agustino
No - because a world tailored to my needs takes away from the merit of my character. The world we live in isn't tailored to anyone's desires. That's great!I mean more like playing a video game, where you can accomplish goals, or fail to, but one tailored completely to your desire to suffer and overcome. — Marchesk
Pity on them. While the gaining of the power may be meritous, the mere use of it to make the world more tailored is lowly. It's the making of something out of nothing that is great. In fact, the greater the opposition, the greater the victory, the greater the triumph. God overcame the impossible to create the world - made the world out of nothing. What greater triumph than possibility beating impossibility?Some people manage to get enough money and power to make it a little more tailored. But that's no guarantee against a thousand things that could go wrong at any moment. — Marchesk
I don't find that entertaining, actually that's fucked up and disgusting. If I was in charge, I'd ban all horror movies for teaching and entertaining psychotic mindsets. — Agustino
No - because a world tailored to my needs takes away from the merit of my character. The world we live in isn't tailored to anyone's desires. That's great! — Agustino
n fact, the greater the opposition, the greater the victory, the greater the triumph. — Agustino
God overcame the impossible to create the world - made the world out of nothing. What greater triumph than possibility beating impossibility? — Agustino
Yes, banning them only makes sense if I am opposed. Romeo's and Juliet's love only made sense because of the great opposition against it. Because they had to throw their lives to keep their love, that's what made them great, that's why they are eternal - they will be remembered. It is those who overcome the greatest obstacles based on their love for Truth and Justice that have overcome the world. It's not even about achieving - it's about fighting, it's about never giving up, it's about not yielding. That's what matters - not success. Romeo and Juliet failed in the flesh. And yet, in the spirit they have overcome - they have left this world with their heads up high - unlike other petty fools who cling to a few more days of life, these two threw it all on the line, gambled with it as if it was nothing. Their detachment from life - based on their greater attachment to Love - that was what overcame the world, that was what propelled them from mere mortals into eternity. It was their leap of faith.Guess what? In your envatted world, you get to be in charge and ban all such shows. Although, it won't affect any of the other envatted minds, so you might not get the same satisfaction from doing so. That's one strike against being envatted. I suppose you could choose to delude yourself during the envatment procedure. — Marchesk
Yes and I congratulate those who were dissatisfied and did something about it. They have made something out of nothing. They are great.I'm glad you find it to be great. Very Nietzschean of you. Here's a thought, though. Do you ever wonder why we live in such a technological world? It's probably because people were never entirely happy with the way the world was, and figured out some way to tailor it. We could all just be overcoming lions and thirst on the Savanna with our two legs and opposable thumbs, but someone clever was always dissatisfied. — Marchesk
Well the people who did endure the Holocaust did become titans of virtue. I have great admiration and respect for people like Viktor Frankl - who showed that the human spirit is greater than the world, even in the worst of circumstances.If only we could all endure the holocaust. What titans of virtue we would become. — Marchesk
Yes making it better is worthy only if there is the struggle to make it better. Believers want paradise, because after living a life in hell, one wants a quietus. But that's only AFTER the great struggle is over, not before.Making a better world than this. Question for you. Why is it that believers wish to enter paradise when they die? Why not more character building? — Marchesk
If it would do everything that it is claiming to be able to do then I'm sure everyone would, and probably someday will be pushing a similar button for at least a few hours a day. — Wosret
Yes making it better is worthy only if there is the struggle to make it better. Believers want paradise, because after living a life in hell, one wants a quietus. But that's only AFTER the great struggle is over, not before. — Agustino
That's why they screwed the pooch, you answered it yourself. Because they only want paradise aftera life of great struggle. it's the struggle that teaches them about themselves (spirit) and about God.What was the plan before Adam & Eve screwed the pooch? Just give people the virtue up front and a ticket straight into paradise? — Marchesk
Yes, banning them only makes sense if I am opposed. Romeo's and Juliet's love only made sense because of the great opposition against it. Because they had to throw their lives to keep their love, that's what made them great, that's why they are eternal - they will be remembered. It is those who overcome the greatest obstacles based on their love for Truth and Justice that have overcome the world. It's not even about achieving - it's about fighting, it's about never giving up, it's about not yielding. That's what matters - not success. Romeo and Juliet failed in the flesh. And yet, in the spirit they have overcome - they have left this world with their heads up high - unlike other petty fools who cling to a few more days of life, these two threw it all on the line, gambled with it as if it was nothing. — Agustino
That's why they screwed the pooch, you answered it yourself. Because they only want paradise aftera life of great struggle. it's the struggle that teaches them about themselves (spirit) and about God. — Agustino
That's because they're weak and petty, and worth nothing. They are like worms and vermins, they will do anything to cling to one more day of earthly life. That's their pettiness. They have surrendered the only freedom they truly had, the freedom of dignity, for what? To live like beggars and scum a few more days, hours or years. What difference does it make, 5 more years or 50 more?As a story, anyway. How many couples in love do you suppose want to die young so that their love can be immortalized? — Marchesk
You should read it in context:A saying comes to mind: "A live dog is better than a dead lion". Might have even come from Solomon. — Marchesk
It's talking about the afterlife, not about this life. "Whoever shall lose his life for my sake - shall gain it". That's the promise Jesus made. Whoever throws this earthly life as if it were nothing, and gambles with it for eternity - they are those truly worthy for the Kingdom and Heaven, and they shall overcome, despite the appearances. They shall be eternal, and live amongst the stars. While those who cling to life, scared, they will perish and will be forgotten - that's the GREAT irony. Those who cling to life will lose it, but those who gamble with it as if it were nothing shall take it all back, just as Jesus Himself did.This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead. For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten
It's talking about the afterlife, not about this life. "Whoever shall lose his life for my sake - shall gain it". That's the promise Jesus made. Whoever throws this earthly life as if it were nothing, and gambles with it for eternity - they are those truly worthy for the Kingdom and Heaven, and they shall overcome, despite the appearances. They shall be eternal, and live amongst the stars. While those who cling to life, scared, they will perish and will be forgotten - that's the GREAT irony. Those who cling to life will lose it, but those who gamble with it as if it were nothing shall take it all back, just as Jesus Himself did. — Agustino
Except that I don't embrace struggle for a better life. I embrace it because the SPIRIT is greater than the FLESH - IN THIS LIFE. You can kill the flesh, but never the spirit. if I never give up, even if I end up dead, so what? My spirit was never killed. My spirit was never touched. My spirit clinged to itself, and thus saved itself. The real death is when your spirit is killed. When you bend down, for a few more seconds of life - THAT my friend, is the real death. To be attached to life is disgusting, it is shameful. It's saying that your spirit, your will, is worth less than this brutal and petty life itself. You'll take this hell itself, over your dignity. That is shameful.But the idea of life being a struggle to be embraced for a better life later on is an interesting idea. If only there were evidence. — Marchesk
No answer my question. Is Solomon saying that it is better to humiliate yourself in order to live longer? Is he saying that or not?I think Solomon is just making some pessimistic observations about life. You're turning it into a Nietzschean overcoming the world thing with a Christian afterlife. — Marchesk
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