If he lies. Show the lies instead of stating he lies and calling him a propagandist. It shouldn't be too hard to argue against someone who you claim is factually wrong. For the rest, stop soliciting his ban. NOS4A2 and I hardly see eye to eye and I seriously thought he was a troll in the beginning, but he isn't. Just someone who believes in such outlandish things (e.g. far removed from what I believe how things work) that it surprised me. Get over it.
Fiona Hill at public hearings: ”Our nation is being torn apart. Truth is questioned. Our highly professional and expert career foreign service is being undermined.” Russia aims at nothing less than destroying Americans’ faith in their democracy. American support for Ukraine, under attack from Russia, has been “politicized,” a succinct summation of Trump’s reduction of a major European country, struggling to emerge from the mind-bending legacy of the Soviet imperium, to a potential source of dirt on a political opponent.
If this is not abuse of power, what is?
....Trump is Putin’s stooge. The American president’s contempt for Ukraine’s fate is quintessentially Russian, for, in the mythology of Greater Russia, Ukraine as an independent state is a mere illusion (hence Putin helps himself to Crimea). Never before have I felt with such acuity — except perhaps during the earlier testimony of Marie Yovanovitch, the former American ambassador to Ukraine — how the public service of dedicated patriots is under attack from Trump’s diplomacy as an exercise in narcissism. — Roger Cohen
I mean; there is a distinct difference between Biden withholding a loan guarentee and Trump withholding congressionally approved funds. — Mark Dennis
Biden was carrying out a policy developed at the State Department and coordinated with the European Union and the International Monetary Fund.
...
The U.S. ambassador at the time, Geoffrey Pyatt, along with then-Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland, were key champions of the policy at the day-to-day level.
...
President Obama confirmed willingness to provide the third tranche of loan guarantees in the amount of $1 billion upon completion of the formation of a new government in Ukraine.
I dont know, seems to me the process for investigating Biden could have been started here. Still not seeing the America first option.
I mean; there is a distinct difference between Biden withholding a loan guarentee and Trump withholding congressionally approved funds.
Also as far as I'm aware, Biden's involvement in Ukraine was to advise the removal of a Ukraine Prosecutor who was not investigating corruption in multiple Ukrainian companies and individuals.
NOS4A2 is an example of a poster who toes the line of philosophical value vs effort. His posts are intellectually bankrupt, but they're also coherent and not poorly written. He genuinely seems to believe his ideas, and he definitely puts some degree of effort into posts. He could actually be a paid Russian troll, but even if that's true, his posts still meet that good-faith "effort" requirement, and he otherwise colors inside the aforementioned hostility lines, so even if we knew he was getting paid to write his posts, it might still be worth letting him stick around.
– VagabondSpectre
No one is investigating Biden, nor has anyone held aid for any investigation into the Bidens. That’s why this impeachment hoax is so silly. — NOS4A2
But I did not understand until much later that Mr. Giuliani's agenda might have also included an effort to prompt the Ukrainians to investigate Vice President Biden or his son, or to involve Ukrainians directly or indirectly in the President's 2020 reelection campaign.
... my understanding was that the President directed Mr. Giuliani's participation, and that Mr. Giuliani was expressing the concerns of the President ...
Adam Schiff: (01:44)
And then of course, on July 25th, although you were not privy to the call and other condition was added, that being the investigation of the Bidens.
Gordon Sondland: (01:53)
I was not privy to the call and I did not know that the condition of investigating the Bidens was a condition, correct.
...
Dan Goldman: (26:55)
President Zelensky then responds without reference to the company that he’s referring to. And two witnesses yesterday said that when President Zelensky actually said the company, he said Burisma. So you would agree that regardless of whether you knew about the connection to the Bidens, at the very least, that you now know that that’s what President Trump wanted at the time through the Burisma investigation.
Gordon Sondland: (27:24)
I now know it all, of course.
Mr. Giuliani said he plans to travel to Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, in the coming days and wants to meet with the nation’s president-elect to urge him to pursue inquiries that allies of the White House contend could yield new information about two matters of intense interest to Mr. Trump.
One is the origin of the special counsel’s investigation into Russia’s interference in the 2016 election. The other is the involvement of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s son in a gas company owned by a Ukrainian oligarch.
Daniel Goldman: (18:59)
And then after that call, you had a subsequent conversation with Ambassador Sondland where he, in sum and substance, told you that the President doesn’t care about Ukraine, he only cares about big stuff related to himself, and particularly the Biden investigation that Giuliani was pushing?
David Holmes: (19:15)
Correct.
...
David Holmes: (58:46)
Okay thank you. It’s exactly my point. I briefed the call in detail to the Deputy Chief of Mission, went away for a week, come back, I refer to the call and everyone is nodding. Of course, that’s what’s going on. Of course the president is pressing for a Biden investigation before he’ll do these things the Ukrainians want. There was nodding agreement. So it did I go through every single word in the call? No, because everyone by that point agreed. It was obvious what the president was pressing for...
The other thing, there's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it ...
I’m asking them to do an investigation that they’re doing already and that other people are telling them to stop. And I’m going to give them reasons why they shouldn’t stop it because that information will be very, very helpful to my client, and may turn out to be helpful to my government.
Rep Mike Turner: 00:56:18 Okay. Well after you testified, Chairman Schiff ran out and gave a press conference and said he gets to impeach the President of the United States because of your testimony, and if you pull up CNN today, right now their banner says Sondland ties Trump to withholding aid. Is that your testimony today Ambassador Sondland? That you have evidence that Donald Trump tied the investigations to the aid? Because I don’t think you’re saying that.
Gordon Sondland: 00:56:41 I’ve said repeatedly Congressman, I was presuming. I also said that President Trump, [crosstalk 00:56:49]
Rep Mike Turner: 00:56:49 Not just the President, Giuliani didn’t tell you, Mulvaney didn’t tell you. Nobody. Pompeo didn’t tell you. Nobody else on this planet told you that Donald Trump was tying aid to these investigations. Is that correct?
Gordon Sondland: 00:57:04 I think I already testified-
Rep Mike Turner: 00:57:05 No. Answer the question. Is it correct? No one on this planet told you that Donald Trump was tying this aid to the investigations. Because if your answer is yes, then the Chairman’s wrong, and the headline on CNN is wrong. No one on this planet told you that President Trump was tying aid to investigations, yes or no?
Gordon Sondland: 00:57:23 Yes.
Rep Mike Turner: 00:57:24 So you really have no testimony today that ties President Trump to a scheme to withhold aid from Ukraine in exchange for these investigations.
Gordon Sondland: 00:57:36 Other than my own presumption.
Daniel Goldman: (18:59)
And then after that call, you had a subsequent conversation with Ambassador Sondland where he, in sum and substance, told you that the President doesn’t care about Ukraine, he only cares about big stuff related to himself, and particularly the Biden investigation that Giuliani was pushing?
David Holmes: (19:15)
Correct.
...
David Holmes: (58:46)
Okay thank you. It’s exactly my point. I briefed the call in detail to the Deputy Chief of Mission, went away for a week, come back, I refer to the call and everyone is nodding. Of course, that’s what’s going on. Of course the president is pressing for a Biden investigation before he’ll do these things the Ukrainians want. There was nodding agreement. So it did I go through every single word in the call? No, because everyone by that point agreed. It was obvious what the president was pressing for...
The other thing, there's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it ...
It's crazy how no evidence at all is enough for you to think an investigation into possible Biden-Burisma corruption is warranted but that despite all the evidence of Trump abusing his power for personal gain you still think the impeachment enquiry is a hoax.
Which investigation of the Bidens are you talking about? Ukraine got the aid, so which investigation in particular was it conditioned upon? — NOS4A2
It received the aid after the State Department realised that withholding it was illegal and after the whistleblower complaint and announcement of investigations.
Trump demanded that Ukraine announce investigations into Burisma and the Bidens so that he can damage a political rival and help his reelection campaign.
Oh dear, quote-mining for the purposes of slander. — NOS4A2
Not sure how a direct quote constitutes slander - unless you consider your statements self-damaging.
Unless you can find one time Trump expressed the desire to “damage a political rival and help his re-election campaign”, you are dealing with presumptions and fabrications. — NOS4A2
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