Now look I am not an a close-minded arsehole, people can do whatever the hell they please as long as it doesn't cause dis-ease or impact on to someone else's life. But I just can't for the life of me see any reason in why there is acceptance over such a thing in society. — intrapersona
Advice to a young actress who asserted that an older actor in a production showed too much affection for the leading man (c. 1910); "My dear, I don't care what they do, so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses."
"A big incompatibility with sense of identity and physical body" is a type of somatic delusion - just as feeling as if your arm isn't your own so you end up cutting it off.Surely you realize that the phrase "born in the wrong body" (or the idea in general) isn't necessarily to be taken literally and doesn't need to include any beliefs about souls or spirits? It can just be a way of saying "a big incompatibility with sense of identity and physical body" in a way which, I suppose, might better describe what it feels like to oneself — zookeeper
This is the typical liberal response to someone asking valid questions and making valid points. They always resort to name-calling when they don't have a legitimate argument to make.If people get offended when you suggest that really they might simply be delusional and wrong about it, that probably has something to do with the fact that they know that regardless of what you call their condition, they can't just make it go away. Calling something a delusion can be useful if there's a realistic possibility of actually dispelling the delusion, but if everyone involved knows that it's a more or less permanent delusion, then insisting on a negative word like delusion is to be a bit of an ass about it. — zookeeper
They believe that their body doesn't match their "inside". They believe that they were born in the "wrong" body. In other words, they believe something is wrong with their body when there isn't anything wrong. This is a somatic delusion. People with somatic delusions are incorrigible and absolutely convinced that the delusion is real. So when you question them about their delusion, as if they could be wrong, they get easily offended - you know, just like those religious types. — Harry Hindu
Just think about it for a second without getting caught up in the politics and ethics of it. These people believe that they have a soul or spirit that is somehow imbued with either masculinity or femininity that is opposite of their body's masculinity or femininity. Do souls or spirits have a quality of masculinity or femininity about them, and can souls be placed in the wrong body? — Harry Hindu
Do you actually think the soul exists? — VagabondSpectre
Of course it is a choice that makes them happy. This is what a delusion is - a false belief that is desperately held onto in an effort to ignore a reality that doesn't make them happy. Delusions are a defense mechanism. They are psychological strategies brought into play by the unconscious mind to manipulate, deny, or distort reality in order to defend against feelings of anxiety and unacceptable impulses and to maintain one's self-schema.As far as I can tell they desire to have a body of the opposite gender. That they might say they were born in the "wrong body" has more to do with their personal preferences than any possible "somatic delusions". They simply make a choice about what makes them happy. — VagabondSpectre
You really need to read my other posts in this thread. If you think that is a somatic delusion but not believing you are in the wrong body, then I'm not sure that you're capable of being consistent.Do you actually think the soul exists? I would call that a somatic delusion. — VagabondSpectre
You really need to research what delusions are before you enter this conversation. I provided a link in my first post. Here is another:Most transsexuals (the one's i've met) don't offer up completely retarded explanations along the lines of souls or insides and outsides or any of the like to explain why they are transgender. They will tell you that they are happier living as the opposite gender. and that's their founding reasoning.
Are you really questioning "delusions"? Or are you just questioning a lifestyle choice that you don't fancy? — VagabondSpectre
"People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner."
Delusional people can function normally but when you question them about their delusion, they cease to be reasonable. The become incorrigible. This is a symptom of a delusion - of rejecting reality and replacing it with your own.
I am questing the validity of their claim which you don't seem to have a problem with questioning my claims, or the claims of the religious which are also delusional, but aren't consistent in questioning transgenders. This is what I mean by being inconsistent. — Harry Hindu
How can you say down syndrome is only a "deviation from the norm"? It is a downright disease of the human condition and it as preposterous that we accept it, it is like cancer, it should be eradicated because it serves no purpose other than wasting our resources like time, money, food and much more. — intrapersona
Except that a penis/balls-bearing transexual male raised as a male or a transexual vagina/ovaries-bearing female raised as a female has to imagine what it is like being the opposite. They do for a while have to pretend. Having watched a tall, broad-shouldered kind-of-homely 45 year old guy transition to being a woman, (not a particularly graceful experience for the two of them) yes, imagination, pretending, and just plain stage work is required to get from one gender to the other.
Ditto for the secular Jewish woman who transitioned to ultra orthodox bearded manhood. Ditto for most of the transexuals I have know. It takes a hell of a lot of "balls" to pull these transitions off, whether it goes well or not. — Bitter Crank
Easy. The delusion is the belief that you are a man when you were born a woman, not that you have a penis when you have a vagina. Having a vagina is what causes them stress. It flies in the face of the reality they built for themselves, which is why they have a "sex-change". This is no different than a man who believes his arm doesn't belong to him, and cuts it off. Like I said before, people with delusions can behave normally but when it comes to their delusion, they seem crazy, like attempting to cut off your arm, or having a "sex-change".The problem I see is you have only described delusions that might apply to some but not all transgender people. You wield your position as if it applies to all of them, but as I have been continuously pointing out all of the example delusions you have put forward are in no way a necessary part of transgender psychology.
For instance "believing you have a penis" when you actually have a vagina is a delusion. But what about transsexuals who know they have a vagina, and then have a surgical operation to create an artificial penis?. Afterward they know they don't have a "real" penis, but they know they have something that approximates one, and that fits well with their desire to live out life as a male.
Where is the delusion? — VagabondSpectre
Please do. I started it by using the alien arm as an example.I'm not entirely interested in ferreting out all available somatic delusions for analysis. When it comes to souls, I don't believe in them, but if you're going to try and argue that wanting to be the opposite gender is necessarily a somatic delusion, I'll happily start pointing out what else might be a somatic delusion in order to force perspective. — VagabondSpectre
And how do you expect us - the folks who don't see souls every other day - to believe or understand this? How can we understand this? Are we supposed to take your words as truth, just because you claim it is so? There's literarily no way, as far as I'm aware, for us to verify this, is there?It's a shame that we cannot even use PF as a reference to point to but if you were present, the "Do Souls Exist" was the highest attended poll of the Forums and the thread was long and detailed. But if you were not there, I shall try to explain how it is that I know souls exist and that their gender is fluid.
I have been aware of souls existing around me that others could not see since 9 or 10 years old. When I questioned my Mother, she knew her Mother, my Granny had spoke of such things but not her. So when I asked my Granny about these things I was seeing and hearing their message of, she was the first person that didn't look at me like I was crazy. She assured me that what I was hearing and seeing was true. She explained to me that the ability to see souls, interact with souls, be able to see into the future (which hadn't happened yet) was a special sense, a sense that would always be open to me, as long as I never misused it for my own personal gains.
Since then, through out my life, I have been utilized as a messenger to get a message to someone. It could be someone I know or a complete stranger but the soul is always persistent, regardless of the recipients' belief in it. As far as their gender? They are souls, so even though they may have had a gender on this plane of reality, they become fluid in nature once they leave the body and it is rather undefined. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
This is utterly insane. Honestly. I think these progressives have just lost the plot. If you have a penis and feel you should have a vagina, then you have a mental disease which requires treatment - which is precisely NOT acting based on your feelings. It's exactly like a drug addict which feels he should have more of a drug in order to live well. It's a mentally created illusion which causes you to fool yourself into doing something s-t-u-p-i-d. — Agustino
What's stupid about cutting off your arm because you think it doesn't belong to you?What's stupid about having a sex change, or choosing to wear clothing typically associated with those of the opposite biological sex? — Michael
And how do you expect us - the folks who don't see souls every other day - to believe or understand this? How can we understand this? Are we supposed to take your words as truth, just because you claim it is so? — Agustino
There's literarily no way, as far as I'm aware, for us to verify this, is there? — Agustino
What's stupid about cutting off your arm because you think it doesn't belong to you? — Harry Hindu
Well certainly if you can see souls, then I'd expect you to have much greater insights than I would with regards to God no? I suppose that you can converse, and ask the souls you meet about God no? Hence if you asked this question, it would seem strange to me. It's like a man who can see, while looking out the window, asks me if there's a tree in front of him.Can you point to God and give me the tools to verify his existence? — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Those hermaphrodites are suffering of a malformation, it's a disease, not the natural state of being. Just like some are born with no arms and no legs. Theirs is a physical disease, and there is a physical solution for it, which is similar to a sex change operation.Because this one is likely to kill you whereas a sex change operation won't.
Always fun to have people who aren't psychologists try to dumb it down to just plain "stupid" or a mental illness.
How about all those people who don't even classify as male or female? There are a couple of more genders out there. — Benkei
Ehmm let's boil it down to plain stupid as Benkei likes it. We treat a disease of the body by acting on the body. We treat a disease of the mind - for example anxiety caused stomach aches - not by giving the patient pills for a physical illness, but by treating the mind. A transexual has a disease of the mind, NOT of the body. His body is what it is, but his mind is unhappy with it, and feels it should have a different body. It's in fact obsessed about this. Thus he has a mental illness. The solution is not surgery anymore than the solution for anxiety caused chronic stomach pain is investigate surgery - regardless of how much the patient insists otherwise, the doctor should refuse such treatment.What's stupid about having a sex change, or choosing to wear clothing typically associated with those of the opposite biological sex? — Michael
Surgery is objectively injurious to the body... — Agustino
...and there is nothing wrong with the body in the first place...
A transexual has a disease of the mind, NOT of the body. His body is what it is, but his mind is unhappy with it, and feels it should have a different body. It's in fact obsessed about this. Thus he has a mental illness.
DSM-5 aims to avoid stigma and ensure clinical care for individuals who see and feel themselves to be a different gender than their assigned gender. It replaces the diagnostic name "gender identity disorder" with "gender dysphoria", as well as makes other important clarifications in the criteria. It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder
Yes, they should be illegal too. (To clarify, not having a tattoo/piercing but giving those in exchange for money should be illegal)tattoos, piercings — Michael
Boxing is a sport, it's not injurious to the body anymore than football is. In both you can, however, injure your body in irreparable ways.boxing — Michael
And I care what the DSM-5 says because? Do you see me bowing my head to that classification and worshipping it?It isn't classified as a mental illness. DSM-5 is quite clear on that. — Michael
And I care what the DSM-5 says because? Do you see me bowing my head to that classification and worshipping it? — Agustino
Yes, they should be illegal too.
Boxing is a sport, it's not injurious to the body anymore than football is
In both you can, however, injure your body in irreparable ways.
So if I am Floyd Money Mayweather and beat everyone without ever losing, how is it injurious to my body? Clearly it can be injurious, it doesn't necessarily have to be. Depends on how good you are.Yes it is. — Michael
No they shouldn't. — Michael
(To clarify, not having a tattoo/piercing but giving those in exchange for money should be illegal) — Agustino
I think professional psychiatrists are a bunch of cuckoos pretty much. I think the way in which they work, having multiple and different patients, and spending relatively little with the patient in actual real life circumstances makes them completely unaware of what a patient actually goes through or how to help them. The ideal is an Aristotle walking around with a young Alexander. That's what a psychiatrist ought to be, and that's the one I trust.You're taking about mental illnesses, so you should care what professional psychiatrists say. They're the ones who determine the "mental illness" classification. — Michael
I would like to know how consistent people are in this. Why do we find it okay to tell the religious that they believe in a delusion, but not okay to tell this to a transgender? — Harry Hindu
Easy. The delusion is the belief that you are a man when you were born a woman, not that you have a penis when you have a vagina. — Harry Hindu
Having a vagina is what causes them stress. It flies in the face of the reality they built for themselves, which is why they have a "sex-change". — Harry Hindu
This is no different than a man who believes his arm doesn't belong to him, and cuts it off. Like I said before, people with delusions can behave normally but when it comes to their delusion, they seem crazy, like attempting to cut off your arm, or having a "sex-change". — Harry Hindu
Did you once meet a transgender person who communicated their condition in terms of "insides" and "outsides"?When a transgender says that their outside doesn't match their inside, ask them how they know the problem isn't on the inside. Question them about what it is on the inside that is different. — Harry Hindu
Do they believe in souls and is it the soul that is different than the body. If the say no, then what else could it be other than a mental problem? My point about souls is that they either believe they are a soul in the wrong body, or they have a mental problem. What other reason could you use to account for their belief and behavior when it comes to their delusion? — Harry Hindu
It seems to me that too many people go straight to the ethics and politics of transgenderism, when we need to first address the cause of transgenderism. — Harry Hindu
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